Ending "Number Matching Crap" has to start at the top!

[x66 714]

Phillip
I believe the VCCA is doing a couple of different classes to cover that area also...Joe

[lakeholme]

Phillip
I believe the VCCA is doing a couple of different classes to cover that area also...Joe

I've heard that. VCCA's HPOCF requires certification in at least two of three areas... I think.

[x66 714]

Sounds about right. I've never looked into. I don't have anything that fit in that classification. I don't have anything that would fall under my own judging ideas. I have a 68 z/28 that doesn't have it's "born with" engine & transmission but no changed body panels & a 69 ss396 that was restored using NOS front sheet metal but has 100% "born with" drivetrain. Go figure....Joe

[lakeholme]

You and Marty need to talk with someone from ACA.
They have multiple categories and classes.

[maroman]

Phil, what is your thoughts on the " any color any option" rule?

[lakeholme]

Personally, I think the car should match the cowl tag... Easy for me to say with the 68 cowl tag, I suppose...  

But, if you are not matching numbers, then any color/any option should still be at least factory year correct, if we're talking about point judging a car.

BTW, before anyone jumps my case, Maroman asked for my "opinion".  

BTW, nowadays, they are called guidelines, not rules. 

[mopar346]

Interesting, I guess this is one area where Mopar has a definite advantage. The fender tag and even the VIN number define much of the car. Mid year and later 69 Camaros at least have X codes so that helps. In both cases everything can be faked and they are getting better all the time and the people capable are getting looser.

Clone is one that is represented as something it was not.

A non-matching numbers car is an original that is missing a major component.

A restamp is a restamp and doesn't make it a clone it makes it a non-numbers car.

So is a car restored that has its original engine but everything else including sheetmetal has been replace more of an original than a car that is a restored original with a non-numbers engine. I think not.

As mentioned just an opinion. Cars are meant to be driven not trailered around and polished. I have been at this for well over 30 years and cant say I have every burnt out, life has rearranged priorities from time to time so that I spent less time at it but never burnt out and I have been in the business the whole time. Cars aren't a life style or a life choice they are in your DNA.

[IZRSSS]

In the Corvette world, "matching numbers" doesn't mean "born with components" which is bull. I believe that "original cars" should be judged differently than "restored to original" cars as cars are only original once. I don't know of any judjing that will police the action of not original as left factory. Then who's going to police new quarters, doors, fenders, floors etc. Those cars are not "born with components". How should we judje those cars?.....Joe

It is far from “bull” if it also means the owner is falsifying records as they pertain to Drive Trains (which are also components). This thread has nothing to do with replacing partial components other than Drive Trains. If it did we wouldn't have a hobby. I think Mike was referencing entire body replacements which should raise a red flag as to the integrity of the rest of the car.
 
IMO, the term “Born with components” can only be adhered to when judging “Survivor Cars”. These cars should have their own unique category (in place at only one show that I'm aware of) and judged based on an assembly line build format. But even these cars shouldn't be immune from their own set of high standards. For example, if any component has been replaced, even if there is evidence of date correct OEM parts, factory replacements, or whatever term you'd like to use, it should carry with it a penalty/deduction. Including their Drive Trains. None of which should have been removed for whatever reason. The rules for these cars should be as stringent as any other top categories at top shows that include First Gens. The premise here should be prime examples of exactly what one of these cars looked like when it rolled off the assembly line.

KIM, just one guys opinion.  

[mopar346]

A complete body replacement shouldn't raise a red flag to the cars integrity, it's not the same car end of story. I have seen a number of arguement to the heart or core of the car and there are many opinions but I think most would agree the core chassis frame work or skeleton if you would of the car is among the core. How much replacement makes it a different car?

Survivor a whole different breed. The definition I have always heard and adhered to is a car that has had no significant repairs and only the necessary maintenance to keep it driving, retains all of its original sheetmetal and 80% of its original paint. Is this the same definition recognized by CRG? Other sanctioning bodies?

[IZRSSS]

You and Marty need to talk with someone from ACA.
They have multiple categories and classes.

I would Phil but the car is several years off from where it should be. 

[maroman]

Thanks Phil, your opinion is exactly what I wanted. I think we are on the same page here. I know you judge and I respect the time and effort. I've asked questions the whole way to the "top office" why a car that could land a person in jail is accepted on the showfield and I was told I don't understand. If it's not a Z-28 it shouldn't be judged as one just because it looks like one. That's MY opinion.

[lakeholme]

You and Marty need to talk with someone from ACA.
They have multiple categories and classes.

I would Phil but the car is several years off from where it should be. 

Marty, it's still a beautiful car! You should get back out there and let people see it.

Thanks Phil, your opinion is exactly what I wanted. I think we are on the same page here. I know you judge and I respect the time and effort. I've asked questions the whole way to the "top office" why a car that could land a person in jail is accepted on the showfield and I was told I don't understand. If it's not a Z-28 it shouldn't be judged as one just because it looks like one. That's MY opinion.

Well, we're on the same page there, too. But when you move away from matching numbers, model specific events that happens all too often.

[IZRSSS]

BTW, a plain jane 68 327 got a first.

Was that '68 a cool shade of yellow; say butternut? 

[x66 714]

IMO, the term “Born with components” can only be adhered to when judging “Survivor Cars”.

A survivor car is just that, a car that has survived all these years as an original upkept car.

A car can be a restored car with "born with components" also. It doesn't nessesarily mean it's a survivor

[lakeholme]

BTW, a plain jane 68 327 got a first.

Was that '68 a cool shade of yellow; say butternut? 

Yes, but no vinyl top... not mine. And I judged early  Vettes. so my butternut prejudice was not involved .