Again, package tray/rear window mldg. trim paint? Suede? Ever see both?

[IZRSSS]

Great pics guys! It's easy to see why this paint finish is so hard to nail down. Both Steve's low mileage Norwood cars have different finishes. I thought there would be some sort of correlation between plants and finishes but obviously that isn't the case. Even the LA car looks different than the other two; which doesn't surprise me because again, this mixture was made and applied by hand. What is definitive though is that all the areas Chick mentions (his thread title) should have the suede finish.

Another question was posed as to how these finishes should be judged. My 2-cents; It's clear that the majority of us, even seasoned vets, were unclear as to the correct finish as it pertains to this topic. What is also clear is that many restorations (including high-end restorations) missed this detail. Should these cars and their owners be penalized for leaving this detail out? Not only no, but hell no! We learn something new about these cars every day. And here is a case of even seasoned vets learning something new as well. However, I do think the suede finish needs to be phased in as a mandatory requirement; at least as it relates to high-end events. How this gets done is beyond my knowledge, but again, now that the cats out of the bag it should to be addressed.

[IZRSSS]

As opinionated as most of us are, I find it extremely hard to believe I am the only member with an opinion as to how this matter should be addressed. This certainly can't be the only time new findings have surfaced with regards to these cars. Come on guys...state your case. I don't think you'll have to serve hard time for simply stating an opinion. How have these issues been resolved in the past?

[lakeholme]

Resolved?
Marty, I'm sending you a PM.

[IZRSSS]

Thanks.

[Steve Shauger]

The suede examples I presented are typical of what I have seen. That is certainly not absolute proof that every car had that type of finish. We have seen a few examples with satin finishes and they may be an exception. There may be a time period that the satin finish was used or quality control issues. As I stated prior opinions are just that, and I think we need more samples/examples. I will say based on my experience suede is my choice, and that is what I have used in the past. Remember the rear stripes dimensions anomoly on the 69 Z's built in a specific time period.   

[IZRSSS]

Steve,

"The suede examples I presented are typical of what I have seen. That is certainly not absolute proof that every car had that type of finish".  
I agree.

"We have seen a few examples with satin finishes and they may be an exception".  
I have only seen 4 well preserved low mileage examples and they're all suede finishes. What was/is the condition of those cars and their mileage and can we/I see pics?

"There may be a time period that the satin finish was used or quality control issues".
Purely speculative.

"As I stated prior opinions are just that, and I think we need more samples/examples".
I couldn't agree more.

Thanks!    

[Sauron327]

Does John H's Z count as a well preserved car? His appears to be just satin as he stated in the other thread..

[IZRSSS]

I knew it was just a matter of time... Well, I've stuck my neck out this far so I may as well stick it out the rest of the way ;  I think it's pretty obvious that John's Z is one of, if not the best, original examples we have. However, and I realize I'm walking on thin ice here, even though John states his finish is med gloss (not satin-Reply 5) http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=7432.0, I can almost swear I see hints of suede.

There I've said it. Have your way with me but be gental.

[Sauron327]

Satin, medium gloss....misstatement of no great importance. Gloss percentages are on a scale. There is no exact satin or medium gloss. Throw eggshell and matte into the picture if you want to add more sheen variations. The mind cannot recall color and sheen to a certain degree. If you walked across a parking lot and looked at another car that was 5-10% different in gloss you would not be able to tell. John's does not have the grainy appearance and only he would know the actual appearance and how it deteriorated.

Have fun. You can add these variations, if any, to the tailpanel gloss level debate, and the characteristics of lacquer paint and wear.

[IZRSSS]

Flat, satin, medium gloss, gloss, etc...my lay definitions; satin looks like flat gloss, medium gloss looks like a medium gloss, gloss looks like gloss & suede looks like painted glitter. Any more information than that and I'll have to start charging admission. My point is (& please Scott-I mean absolutely no disrespect!), this is a simple research topic and any more information than that simply clouds the issue. Plain and simple, one or more of these finishes above were used on the interior of our cars. So far we have John's car which is painted med gloss, Steve who stated he has also seen them painted in satin, and then there's Bill who's opinions we highly value; "its suede-get over it". Let's not forget that Bill's comment is also backed by R-M data.
 
So, with everything that has been discussed is anyone willing to take a stand as to what the accepted finish/finishes should be?  Or should we just say the %ell with it and what ever you end up with from your painter will work at all major judged events?

[Steve Shauger]

Let me clarify...as  I stated previously I have only observed the use of suede finish on the
package trim in over 35 years of owning, collecting,judging and inspecting camaros. The examples I mention were John H & Lonnie. Again if there are other examples of satin finishes I would like to see and verify.

[Sauron327]

The suede locaton info is on the PPG charts as well as R-M.  Someone could borrow or buy a gloss meter, which measures up to 2000 gloss units, and an orange peel meter, which will provide texture analysis. Readings of survivor cars could be taken. This data, the paint charts, and the accompanying survivor photos could be presented to set a new judging acceptance standard. Acceptable finish sample cards could be shot and compared to cars beng judged. An acceptable variation range would have to be determined.

[IZRSSS]

Scott's recommendation is an example of what sets CRG apart. No nonsense, no BS, do a little research, do it correctly, and come up with the facts. Thanks, I don't think there is a better solution out there.

[IZRSSS]

...and, what better qualified organization to assist with this than the; Vintage Certification Program. Would this be a possibility, Steve?

[68camaroz28]

Untouched original blue interior- Checked this car out today and it seemed to this untrained eye to be non-tectured but close ups  seem to be similar to others posted but again looking at it I would not have called it a suede finish but you be the judge.




Our 68 Interior corner pcs.! Again, you be the judge.