Ideas to share concerning 1:18 '67-'69 GMP Penske Donohue Camaros.

[Bruce302]

Mike, I love the idea of the 68/69 Titus Firebird model. Craig Fisher ran the full '69 Trans Am Firebird in early '70. It was a very nice looking car, but I am a bit biased.

Bruce.

[Jon Mello]

I agree that one (or two) of those Firebird models would be neat to see. A significant amount of work but based on what I have seen so far, something you could definitely pull off.

As for the steering wheel in Donohue's Camaro at Marlboro, it definitely had the same black electrical tape wrap as see in the earlier test session. Here is a photo at Marlboro with the door open. Only the bottom section of the wood wheel is exposed. [Note the Penske Racing "crest" decal which is not on the model]


Photo by Andrew Keller

Below is a photo taken two weeks later at the Continental Divide Trans-Am in Colorado. The steering wheel is the same as at Marlboro. This happens to be the last race for this steering wheel as it broke during the race and was subsequently replaced with a Grant 3-spoke. Of note on the wood wheel is that there are alternating bands of dark and light colored wood.

[Jon Mello]

Notice how badly bowed the hood is at Marlboro and Continental Divide while being in the fully closed position. Special thinner-gauge front sheet metal had been stamped for Penske on a one-time basis in the GM tooling prior to the August 6th Trans-Am at Bryar. Unfortunately, Mark broke an axle twice at Bryar and crashed the car heavily, nose first, into a wood barricade trashing all the new front sheet metal. The least damaged was the hood so they kept it even though it is not up to the cosmetic standards one normally associates with Penske. When this car got damaged in the trailering accident on the way to the Modesto Trans-Am in early September, the hood finally met its demise.


Photo by Andrew Keller

[Swede70]

Greetings Jon,

Fine eye (if I don't sound bit too much like a Little League father yelling from the stands!) for what just wholly escaped me.  Much I'm missing, as I first thought I was seeing the play of shadows across those other images concerning the wood wheels that are revealed plainly for your input to have taped sections.  GMP did a wholly-taped wheel, while I prepared to go on of two ways - not a third!  

I have some old AW & CP issues that have the two '69 spec. Titus/Godsall Firebirds updated to single 4BBL/Ram Air IV head/tall deck block '70 spec. (whew! - I'm tired!) for sale in elaborate print ads., hence know/love those too!  Such confidence they telegraph in the ads., speaking of their competitiveness.  Pity the '70 Pontiac engine not really a match for what were in essence top-flight '69 factory-backed clone customer cars/chassis.  As an aside, the same AW & CP 'stack o'decaying newsprint' has reportage to the effect that ARA intended to purchase All American Racing constructed 'Cudas to campaign in the 1970 season - plans that came to naught.  

As to the Fisher-purchased T/G Firebirds, any guess what color these were painted?  Were I not so slow, so deliberate, I'd have an example of each.  I think it would be intelligent to do the former two side-by-side.  Although separate and apart, the Fisher '70 spec. would likely be the easiest of all, requiring fewer body and drivetrain mods. to 'get there'.  Collecting parts for a '70 Titus Firebird, with aqua-painted Minilites, four 'rear' tires, and the usual 'much that is missed' approach.  Literally a hobby for a lifetime, for I am a shop of one.  Thanks and with very kind regards...

Mike K.

[Swede70]

Short note,

The Penske Racing crest will likely have to be photo-reduced and printed off on either decal stock or high-quality paper to be cut out and white-glued in place - inelegant this.  Pondering the purchase of the George Follmer '67 GMP (with crest tampo-printed and in place), imagining the transfer of the single 4BBL small block Chevrolet to a long-range '70 Chaparral Camaro project, destruction testing the rear so as to understand what is necessary to remove the taillights or mask the rear panel, etc.  GMP tires and a spare set of ARE wheels aren't to be taken lightly either given that I can't quite cast them - yet.  Hope in time to find a means or cottage industry source to turn aluminum wheel outer lips - another long-range desire then.  

Funny and a bit sad too as I reflect upon how many horribly modified high school Camaros wore the extended racing stripes down the back, and to note now that such mods. had basis in fact!  Egads!  Love photo that proves post-Bryar wreck that the thin gauge hood was salvaged and reused - until DISASTER! Have old SCG '67 Season Review that depicts the Donohue's broken axle-induced guardrail encounter - oh, the sorrow and the pity!  Considerable thanks from this quarter...

Mike K.

[Jon Mello]

One photo of the crash at Bryar. I don't recall if this is the one from SCG or not.

[Swede70]

Greetings Jon,

Thanks for your kind effort.  Yes, yours is the same shot that is shown in the 1967 SCG Competition Year Review I have in my possession.  I've not compared issue-for-issue to note or notice if extra coverage is afforded within the yearbook per se, but rather doubt it.  Again, my appreciation.

P.S. ...with the distinct 'wood band' appearance of the steering wheel, might they have fitted something manufactured by Nardi?  I could search my mags. to inspect classifieds, whereas I have an old Villem Hahn (sp?) and perhaps a MG Mitten catalog to flip through that might reveal the manufacturer of the same. 

Mike K.

[Jon Mello]

You're very welcome, Mike. I'm glad to be of help.

I don't recall where I heard the story but it seems that Donohue was given the wheel prior to the start of the season. Can't remember who it came from but he felt inclined to use it. You can see that they had to fabricate their own hub out of billet aluminum to mount it on the steering column so whatever it was originally meant for, it would likely be foreign. The names you suggest would be a good start. I was thinking Les Leston might be another. The slots in the spokes are shaped very much like the standard Corvette wheel of the mid-'60s however this steering wheel is not dished at all. The Nardi wheels have a slot that is much too narrow and they also have the Nardi name engraved on them. This wheel Donohue used had nothing engraved on the spokes.

[Jon Mello]

This photo is from the August 6, 1967 Bryar Trans-Am. Its shows the location of the battery in the
right rear corner of the trunk, the taller than stock rear spoiler with the notch for the trunk pin,
the lack of a pinstripe on the spoiler versus the striping on the rest of the car, the hole in the lid
for the fuel filler and maybe one or two other details if you spend the time and look closely.


Photo from Bryar Racing magazine

Here's another shot taken at the same time but by a different photographer. More interesting details to see.


Photo by Ron Lathrop

[Swede70]

Greetings,

Some discreet work again; i.e. efforts to revise the rollcage structure.  It may all be scratchbuilt, whereas what can be noticed is the removal of all cross bars from within the main hoop (one across to be fitted soon), whereas simple bars extend back down towards the rear subframe versus extending into the trunk area.  I didn't see the side bars bowing out as they do on the later Penske Camaros, hence the same replaced with straight stock, whereas the tubes set on an angle nearest the front footwells are new.  Convinced I am that the tubes right in front of the footwell tubes set on an angle are wrong, but not certain what might exist there.  Not seeing shadows, I cannot tell just how far forward the tubes extend into the footwells, whereas the standard items seem patterned roughly on the '69 spec.  One can further see the tube added that is situated below the dash that stretches across from side to side.  The tiny panel fitted to where the heater and radio might otherwise have been fitted is berift of fuse panel detail, hence incomplete it is.  

I expect that I've done a few things wrong here, and that further work will be required.  Given that the tubes mate at rather severe angles and are visible as such from outside of the vehicle (versus later Trans Am cars where the installation of such tucks them under the roof), much can be said in favor of tossing the diecast plastic parts aside and beginning anew.    Thanks Jon for the kind provision of photographs and always relevant insight.  

Mike K.



M.K.

[Jon Mello]

I have reattached your photo with some editting. The legs I have colored green should not be used, although I understand that it doesn't appear to be logical. I will support that with a different photo. The yellow line is a bar that may or may not be there. I suspect it is but don't know that for a fact as it is very hard to see everything in an all-black interior. I still have some other photos to review. What I do know is there is nothing above that yellow line in terms of a cross-brace. The bars that I drew a thin blue line on are lower than this. I posted a couple of other photos in the "Original T/A racing photographs" thread and you can see that the front/top cross bar is so low that it almost gets in the way of the rear view mirror.

[Jon Mello]

This photo of the second '67 Penske Camaro, while not the same car, shows that they did not make the forward bar of the roll cage run straight down to the floor. Note that the lower part of the forward bar goes through the floor and is welded to the subframe underneath. I am not 100% certain this is how the Marlboro car was done. I don't think it was. I think it was attached to the inner rocker panel area. Again, the black interior of the 1st Penske car makes it difficult to tell.


Photo by Craig Fisher

[Jon Mello]

I just received this 1967 Bryar Trans-Am photo which shows a hint of a bar (by Donohue's shoulder) running between the two uprights of the main hoop of the roll cage. Therefore, the line I indicated in yellow above would seem to be appropriate to the design of the cage.


Photo by Ron Lathrop

[Swede70]

Greetings Jon,

Great thanks for the considerable effort you've made towards the end of assisting me concerning the cage configuration. Hugely appreciative I am, whereas I've just picked up supplies to make a very determined go of the cage beyond that seen to date. Again, I'm quite at a loss for words concerning the value of the input afforded me.  I hope to capture another image of the cage and chassis to confirm said input was acted upon. Cage fabrication is fun - undeniable 'value-added' concerning the '...well, can you communicate to me just what you did?' angle, and quite satisfying to execute. Given the '70 Autodynamics Challenger project features about the most fiendishly complex period cage I can identify, I view this as a run up of sorts to that effort.  

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Indeed - what a strange configuration for the 'missing two of the four point' roll cage!  I intend to start from the front outriggers and build back, replicating how the bars mate up to these first, then proceed aft. Not sure how much original material I'll save, whereas plates for the base of each contact point of the cage are simple to fabricate and will be added. Hollow tube with brass rod to prevent flexing and sagging.  Fishmouth tube to tube final fitting all done by hand; i.e. just like the actual cage, simply done in 1:18th scale.  A bread board with a few nails tapped into it is my 'mandrel' and 'jig' both, whereas for something that hasn't a cage, file cards folded in half are cut and cut again to smoothly mesh into roof and side interior contours when the same is required. My '70 Penske Donohue Javelin has a cage scratchbuilt in this fashion, and far superior it is to a two-piece cast 'tube' affair.

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Thanks too for the pair of trunk photographs.  No grassy knoll photographs then?  Memories too of the film Blow Up.  Amazing how in a burst photographers might gather around, be intrigued by unexpected access to an atypical sight, and finally, to have two photographs emerging from that same moment with the passage of years. With very much appreciation...

Mike K.

[Swede70]

Greetings,

Pondering the fabrication of the enlarged duck tail spoiler, expect same would be based on a modified and doctored mold of the standard GMP item.  In short, I'd make an effort to cast the top tip of the spoiler without letting the urethane mold material creep right up to the base of the same (the mold being a one-piece affair), stop and apply clay to the standard spoiler to 'gap the transition' between the higher lip and the slightly lower base, reinsert the spoiler, then finish the mold.  I'd expect it to be a bit rough, but subtle as is the doubtlessly hand cast one-off (or two!) seen in the photograph.  Control afforded too to replace the squared-off pin recesses with half-round, whereas photo-etched items used (or perhaps real watch/timepiece hardware) to secure spoiler from the top.  The underside splash shield seen in the trunk photos can be handled easily enough, whereas thanks so much for the assortment of inlet shots. I have the solid trunk lid panel in hand now, and am beginning to drill through the same to lend momentum to that aspect of the effort.  With much thanks...

Mike K.

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...and aside then.  I painted my '69 Minilites and fit the same.  Not totally pleased with paint tone - a bit too earthy, almost looks like the restored racer, whereas period color photographs suggests a paler hue ought to have been employed.  Pondering what to do, whereas same are naked for being sans lugs/wheel centering hub/wheel weights, etc.

M.K.