barrett jackson las vegas Z-28

[jl8dale]

Maybe different levels of Certification is the answer.
Like Certified Camaro Z/28 with Original Drivetrain, Certified Z/28 with Restoration Drivetrain, etc. The certificate could read differently based on what was found to be true during inspection. It would not be foolproof, but could help.

[jdv69z]

Has there been any reaction to any of this from the actual buyer? Does this buyer even know any of this?

I could just imagine being the current owner, and totally oblivious to all this, and then 2 years from now trying to sell this car. What a nightmare that would be.

Jimmy V.

[Jerry@CHP]

I can tell you right now that Ron Pratt does not sit on the computer all day reading posts about Camaros.  All of the big players are much too busy for that.  They rely on people to help them make decisions.

I should also say that I recently inspected a car for Allan Jackson, the country singer.  That did not go well for them but I did give Allan's manager the best professional advise on what to do with the car in question.

Jerry

[Pacecarjeff]

Maybe different levels of Certification is the answer.
Like Certified Camaro Z/28 with Original Drivetrain, Certified Z/28 with Restoration Drivetrain, etc.
The certificate could read differently based on what was found to be true during inspection. It would not be foolproof, but could help.

That is ridiculous - it is up to the purchaser to read the paperwork.

When I look at a Corvette - if I am told the car is Bloomington, or NCRS certified.
THE FIRST THING I ASK FOR - IS TO SEE THE FULL REPORT.

The pages are numbered, and I make sure I see every single page. 
Also I look to see if it is a Local, Regional, or National award - also, I want to know the names of the judges.
There are WAY to many variables to a "certification".

All that can be expected of an apprasier is to write a report -
If the seller hides the report and only shows the certificate - then there might be a problem.

People like to display their certificate, or Top flight award.
Why should an award have a disclaimer?
The written report is the only thing that means anything - not the certificate.

A Bloomington Silver award, or NCRS 2nd Flight still means an extremely nice car -
You need to look at the report to see why?

An appraisal could even read 6cyl car ---> cloned into a Z/28?  you need to read the report.

[jl8dale]

I agree, but my point is if the Certificate stated "Authentic Camaro Z/28 with Restoration Drivetrain" right on the front, maybe it wouldn't be thrown around and advertised so much.

[69 Z11]

That would still be wrong wouldn't it?  It would have to read "Authentic Camaro Z/28 Trim Tag, VIN plate, and paperwork, with Restoration Drivetrain and Restoration Body"?

[jl8dale]

My point is just that by stating some of the important information on the actual "certificate", it would be obvious immediately. Yes, a smart buyer should read the report too, but that is not always available, especially when someone is trying to hide something.

[carguy]

My original point is that  the word certificate or certified should not be used if the car has not met a certain set of criteria such as original drivetrain including block plus authenticity of the trim tag has been verified.  Those cars that do not meet this criteria should be called something else similar to the manner that NCRS distinquishes between Top, second and third NCRS flights or Bloomington Gold and Silver winners.  Most buyers know immediately the difference between a first or second and thrid flight as well as a Bloomington gold or silver.  Why should that not be the same with an experts opinion that is being used to market the car?  This is the point that I am hoping our experts will take from this.

Thanks

[firstgenaddict]

Well Jerry should be able to release his copy of the report... Kent Waters has apparently put his online...
http://independentcustoms.com/contents01.htm

[SSJunkie68-69]

Follow this link to Ken Waters website and you will see they have posted the three page report.

http://independentcustoms.com/contents01.htm

I am confused as the report posted does not mention that the drive train was a restoration drive train and I thought I remember reading that Jerry noted in his report that it was a restoration drive train.
 
" The trim tag and vin number tag and paperwork is real.  I flagged the drive train as a restoration drive train in the report on the car."

Since the report has been posted in the public domain I am hoping we can get a clarification on this.

[firstgenaddict]

EXACTLY!!!

[69Z28-RS]

when you 'sign' your name you are *certifying* something...  sometimes it's as simple as 'you are that person'.  At other times, you are certifying that certain information is correct...  ie.. your address, your ownership of an item, or that you are a resident of a state, etc...

When an appraiser 'certifies' his appraisal by signing it, he is stating (certifying) that he believes the contents of the report are true and correct to the extent he has stated it.  Apparently Jerry M believed that car to be correct when he did that report (from reading the report on KM's site).   A judging report on the other hand, simply states what is visible to the eye, and doesn't get so much into 'belief' or subjective knowledge.   It simply reports what the codes say, the colors, if they are correct or not, and then perhaps a subjective judgement as to condition, correctness, etc.   In this case there seems to be some confusion whether this is a 'judging report' (per specific restored Camaro guidelines), or an 'authentic Z28 Certification'.

I have appraised vehicles for 'out of town / out of state' purchasers previously.  I tried to make my report as factual as I could re reading colors, codes, conditions, etc much as Jerry's report does, but I also provided 'My subjective  beliefs' where I believed something to be 'faked'.    I suspect if Jerry had been writing the subject report for a 'prospective buyer' he would have been less reserved in his judgement and statements made in the report.   When I read the report, it *read* more like a detailed 'Judge sheet' than a Certification of authenticity...?

[dutch]

A judging report on the other hand, simply states what is visible to the eye, and doesn't get so much into 'belief' or subjective knowledge.   It simply reports what the codes say, the colors, if they are correct or not, and then perhaps a subjective judgement as to condition, correctness, etc.   In this case there seems to be some confusion whether this is a 'judging report' (per specific restored Camaro guidelines), or an 'authentic Z28 Certification'.
  I suspect if Jerry had been writing the subject report for a 'prospective buyer' he would have been less reserved in his judgement and statements made in the report.   When I read the report, it *read* more like a detailed 'Judge sheet' than a Certification of authenticity...?

Guess that is what I was trying to say previously...

  "What is appears to have been done is that they asked for an inspection to verify that the car in question was capable of attaining a certain degree of correctness in a judged sense without completely following through and asking for complete certification of it as a true numbers matching, original vehicle as was apparently stated in the seller's and BJ promotion of it prior to and during the auction itself.
   This sort of splitting hairs I agree, but for the BJ and the seller to be able to attach Jerry's name to the advertising documentation immediately and wrongfully (in thsi case) puts forth to buyers the illusion the car has been attested to by Mr. MacNeish as being what they are stating it is, instead of just a car he deems worthy of attaining a certain degree of show correctness - no minor feat mind you - but a big difference none the less in my eyes.  - Randy

[gman]

From TC...just thought it was appropiate here as well...


I don't think it is all about money to some......The practices of "yesterday" are now today's news...except in this case it looks like this was "today's practice.." Unless "you" modify your thought process instead of in front of the curve you end up behind it..I would suspect that is the case here..IMO JM probably needs to change his process or again IMO stop it altogether if certain practices can't be deduced..

Another case in point...'69 Yenko last three of VIN 272, Daytona Yellow..(don't worry..I discussed this back in 2003 on Yenko.net....caught flak back then..as saying "rebody" was like calling the Pope a name..lol) was a local race car, a known Yenko, a car I used to ride in and cruise Broad Street here in Richmond in, was actually used as Don Yenko probably envisioned.. got abused, cut up, and then in the late 90's.."restored"...all before the 'net and the sharing of info we have today..Unfortunatly in 2003 the then owner didn't know the previous history of his car...I'm sure it was a surprise to find out his "restored" car used to be a 9 sec bracket car which set low et at the 1995 Richmond Super Chevy Show..1 real Yenko VIN, 1 uncut firewall with original tags in place, a bunch of parts from God only knows how many cars..and viola....1 factory original, restored Yenko...a real car with real history...just not a lot of "real" parts save an unpierced cowl with original tag, the VIN tag, and a metal dash

Another example..the items we use as documentation..look at POP's..Who here is going to say a POP bought through Hemmings in 1992 (made on the same GM machines, with the same GM tape, using the same warranty book and metal card as the factopry did) isn't the real deal?? How many POP's which were used over the last 7 years (when the market was hot) to validate a car were actually made in the '80's/'90's??? I'd bet more than a few...especially on Camaros...Is JM responsible for deciding if the ink is '69 or '89 vintage??

There are countless cars which fall into this type of catagory...That is why doing your research is vital today...Unfortunatly because GM didn't envision these cars would be collectible and we are enthusiast have..we have to use ALL of the resources available to us to determine originality...Jerry's report or one like it, is just 1 piece of the equation...and a piece which is open to interpetation as it doesn't address ALL of the potential pitfalls (ie: Is this body shell the same one this VIN left the plant with...was this POP made in 1969 or 1989 and its' just aged?) That is why when paying for a collectible you need to look beyond what is being presented..do some legwork, invest your time and not only your money..

I would susggest the easiest way going forward if someone wants to guarantee their money with these cars...and to not end up in this type of situation...is just evaluate what it would take to build the car...what the parts and labor are worth and pay that...This is what other collectors in other hobbies have to do...It might not be the answer people want to hear..but IMO it is the only answer at this junction..

The sad truth is there isn't any 100% foolproof way to know what you THINK you have is what you TRULY have...unless you bought it new...
__________________

[samanatoo]

That is exactly why I bought my Hugger orange Z28 for a premium price.

 Even though the drive train apeared to be correct with casting dates and casting numbers,  but not 100% sure of original due to a blank front pad and pianted rough surface oil filter boss so the partial vin was impossible to see.  The cowl tag was real and never off the car and full ownership history and verbal discusions with all of them proved very helpfull and assuring when paying a high price for the car.  If I had to build the car again it would have cost me as much. 

Jerry wrote up a report on my car a few years ago for the previous owner. It is his way,  apraising and creating a report on a car to state what is original and correct and how it should be from the factory and very thorough at his best ability.   He did not remove the paint by the oil filter boss on my Z28  and he did not remove the alternator to remove the paint which was covering the factory original stampings on the front pad.   He was alone when reviewing my car and had no means of lifting the car and digging and crawling under to do what I did when I took ownership of my 69 Z28.  I removed the paint and found my partial stampings on the oil filter boss that matched my cars vin and removed the paint on the front pad to find the DZ stampings. I was lucky in finding that my car still has the original motor and that my car has been able to provide some info on the August built Z28 cars for the extended production year.   I also did not do it alone, I used the CRG site extensively and all the information from Jerry's book  and did my homework That is what you do to avoid the stings and outcomes of a Mess like this.       

Even though you have a report for a car either by Jerry or another notable venue you should still do your homework and research prior to purchase or have a second or third opinion.   This my 2 cents and my story on my 1969 Z28 that I was told is Jerry Ceritified,  if Jerry help prove that your car was an original Z28 from the birth then that is cool.  Jerry certing that your car is a real Z28 with original drivetrain or not and a well done  appraisal too and helping show you what needs to be done to the car to be a class winner as well. Keep going Jerry!!!   You are human and limited to what can be done while reviewing a car.  If BJ  and the seller used your name in advertising the car they shoiuld have let prospective buyers review it. I do not know if they did because I was not there to buy a 1969 Z28,  I LOVE THE ONE I HAVE.