Supposed 69 Camaro Pace Car Festival Car on Ebay

[sdkar]

Check out this 69 pace car on ebay. Yet another boisterous claim that I believe is just not true.

Not that I am a complete 69 Camaro pace car expert.  But this guy thinks his car is a festival car.  I do not believe this to be true as it has a build date of 04C.  If I am not mistaken...didn't festival cars have a build date of around February and/or March at the latest?

Nice car...but I don't think its a festival car.


See Ebay # 220153390857


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Camaro-Pace-Car-1969-Camaro-Indy-500-Pace-Car-INDY-500-FESTIVAL-CAR_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ6161QQihZ012QQitemZ220153390857QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[BillG]

You are correct SDKAR.  It looks like a very nice car, but any 1969 festival car will have a build date in the last week of Feb.

[67ModTop]

Actually!

 This could still be a Festival car but just not out of the group that he has referred to it being out of.
 Chevrolet's Commitment to the Speedway and the Festival Committee are all early build cars, such as what has already been mentioned.
 The Brass Hat Cars that the Zone handled is the only group of cars this could be a part of.  The car also has an Endura bumper, another feature that was not found on the commitment cars, however,may have been found on the Chevrolet cars.
 The bottom line.... Docs are always needed on a 69 Z11 of this build date to prove her history.
 

[9T4Z]

I asked him about documentation:  this was his response........hmmmm



 Dear 9t4z,
 
 That was a primary concern of ours to Gary when we were first told this was a festival car. But then we were informed that the 396 Camaro's made up the majority (but not all) of the earlier Vins. As far as documentation is concerned I'm sorry to say that to this day there is no list of Vin's or other documentation on the cars that were there. In the beginning they were all issued numbers with temporary road permits, and this has served to prove the authenicity of some of the festival cars. But once again I regret to inform you that through the transfer of owners the numbered tag didn't make it. As far as identifying a festival car, most inspectors have to break down the little differences in the cars to determine it they'd be a likely candidate then dig back through the owners records and try and find a match from dealer records. We have all the previous owners records on the Camaro dating back to the first owner and through the time it was in a museum in tennessee. We plan on giving the auction winner all of our information. Sorry we won't be able to give you physical paper work proving authenicity. But if you have any more question concerning the Camaro or the points that are recognized on a festival car please feel free to ask. Thanks again for your time! -James Milby
   
 
 - jamesmilby

[KurtS]

Tony,
I don't know of any 69's that are documented being provided by the zone, do you?

And he 'borrowed' those pics from my 69 pacer article.....

[sdkar]

I am not sure, but are the headrests from an early 69 Camaro.  My Camaro is an 04C and I have the tilted headrests.  These look straight (but it may be the bad angle of the photo).  Does anyone else out there think these look like early headrests too?  Finally, The rear bumper guards are the oversized ones with the rubber inserts.  Was this larger rear bumper guard an option?  Was it available on the pace car?  I thought these guards were standard on Z/28's only?  The seller states the car has air conditioning, but I'm pretty sure he is mistaken on that fact. What is #911 dover white exterior color code?   
Steve

[Mark]

The guards are RPO V32 and they were available on any Camaro.  My PC has them on the rear and i originally had the V31 front bumper guards, but found an endura front bumper for cheap money a few years ago so those are up in the attic.  I think 911 was a later Dupont paint code for the equivalent of dover white.

[67ModTop]

The bumper guards are just an option.  If my 69 facts aren't too rusty, they are a part of the F41 package. That's why we see so many cars with just rear guards and not front.
 
Kurt,

 I'm a huge fan of vintage pictures, but I'm also a fan of Indiana State BMV print outs such as the ones that the seller of the 67 Festival car has for his car that is also on ebay.
 All the Festival cars, the commitment cars and the Zone cars were all licensed to Chevrolet's Zone office.
 The same is true for 1967.

 This is why I'm guessing that there is a chance that it could still be a Festival car but the owner will need to prove it.
 History is going to separate the value of the two groups of Pace Cars in both years that we are concerned with.... this is why so many sellers want their potential buyers to believe there is a true connection to history.

 I know you know this...but to the buyers???
 

[william]

 Dear 9t4z,
 
 That was a primary concern of ours to Gary when we were first told this was a festival car. But then we were informed that the 396 Camaro's made up the majority (but not all) of the earlier Vins. As far as documentation is concerned I'm sorry to say that to this day there is no list of Vin's or other documentation on the cars that were there. In the beginning they were all issued numbers with temporary road permits, and this has served to prove the authenicity of some of the festival cars. But once again I regret to inform you that through the transfer of owners the numbered tag didn't make it. As far as identifying a festival car, most inspectors have to break down the little differences in the cars to determine it they'd be a likely candidate then dig back through the owners records and try and find a match from dealer records. We have all the previous owners records on the Camaro dating back to the first owner and through the time it was in a museum in tennessee. We plan on giving the auction winner all of our information. Sorry we won't be able to give you physical paper work proving authenicity. But if you have any more question concerning the Camaro or the points that are recognized on a festival car please feel free to ask. Thanks again for your time! -James Milby
   
 - jamesmilby

There IS a list of Festival Z11s; many are 350s and they are in the VIN range N608xxx-N610xxx. The list was published in an old issue of the Camaro Enthusiast.

Not only is this car not on the list it was built months later than the cars on the list.

What absolute BS! They make a claim intended to enhance the value but can't back it up. Any wonder why classic car dealers have a sleazy rep?

[67ModTop]

Tony,
I don't know of any 69's that are documented being provided by the zone, do you?

And he 'borrowed' those pics from my 69 pacer article.....

 Sorry Kurt!

 I just realized I really didn't answer your question exactly.
 
 No!!  I'm afraid I don't know any truly documented 69 Zone Cars.

 

[KurtS]

I wonder if 69 was different and all the cars were ordered at the same time. No evidence pointing to the zone providing cars (and none that they didn't).

And F41 did not include the bumper guards. G31 did.

[67ModTop]

The Zone provided the "Chevrolet cars" through their Company Car program. They had their own "Brass Hat Program" as they did in 1967.

 The cars pictured all lined up at the track with the Trucks and Impalas is Chevrolet's Commitment to the local Program.
 The Zone cars were more or less for the National Press, Chevrolet Sponsors, Visiting Central Office Personnel, Zone Personnel ETC, ECT.
 This is why so many are confused about the numbers in 1967 and in 1969.
 
 

[Dave69x33]

Regarding the rear bumper guards, and for what its worth, here is pic of 69 Pace Car #1.  It has the short guards.  The owner is a relative well know among the Camaro fraternity.  I meet up him again at the Indy Pace Car reunion the Indy Speedway sponsored on May 19-21, 2006.  This car is VIN #N607587.

What a fun event with many "original" pace cars that the Speedway keeps in their museum collection.

[67ModTop]

Dave,

 There is a good chance that there will another Pacer  :)reunion this year, I've been told.

[9T4Z]

The Zone provided the "Chevrolet cars" through their Company Car program. They had their own "Brass Hat Program" as they did in 1967.

 The cars pictured all lined up at the track with the Trucks and Impalas is Chevrolet's Commitment to the local Program.
 The Zone cars were more or less for the National Press, Chevrolet Sponsors, Visiting Central Office Personnel, Zone Personnel ETC, ECT.
 This is why so many are confused about the numbers in 1967 and in 1969.
 
 

Which is why it is bs.  Some would pay a premium for a Festival car... why not... it can be documented and verified.  If there was a Zone committment of Pace Cars they were nothing more than show and shine used cars.  Nothing speical and no history.  This dealer is deliberately misleading potential buyers

There is so much verbage in the ad it is hard to figure out what is about the car and what is about Pace Cars... did I understand that the engine is NOT original yet the car is all the money....

Gary