PHOSPHATE... APPEARANCE vs. MAINTENANCE TRADEOFFS

[Charley PHX]

PHOSPHATE... APPEARANCE vs. MAINTENANCE TRADEOFFS and the long game...

Sorry for this lengthy post.  Trying to synthesize a TON on prior discussion on related topics (which I've researched at length)...  Opening a new topic; because while there's much discussion on correctness... i've not found quite so much material on long term implications (and what I did find was no longer current). 
 
Regardless... several really good references (citated below).  Because some of these go back almost ten years... wondering how well they've stood up to the test of time?

OBJECTIVE: Achieve a show-quality (i.e. points judged) finish; while also minimizing the burden for perpetual maintenance after the show's over...

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With respect to finish: It seems the bar has been set (so to speak) in a 2020 discussion (HOOD HINGES SPRING) at:  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=18195.msg165290#msg165290

... The hinge was zinc phosphated and the spring was cleaned and oiled.

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Regarding protection after phosphate treatment; and keeping it 'pretty' longer...

AT: "1969 Hood Hinge Color" (2012 discussion) at:  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9256

• LM69Z28 notes at:  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9256.msg66317#msg66317  (edited)...
  

  Lets not forget that "raw" phosphated hinges, springs or latch's etc will get surface rust on them "almost" overnight if its exposed to ANY type of moisture. ... There are many products out there ... to protect these parts after being finished. You don't  want to pull them off ever year or so to redo them ...
  My solution to this ... was several coats of Testors rattle can clear semi gloss lacquer.  Then baked in the oven at 200 degrees. They look great and very correct with a nice medium gray finish!
  
• Further down (same thread); MikeS adds:    http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9256.msg66473#msg66473
  

  ... the hinges along with other parts that were originally phosphated were done in 1987 and still look great today. The trick it to use an oil that goes on wet and dries to the touch. I do this once a year using an artist brush on those parts and never had rust problems.
• and still further; 67L78 adds:  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=9256.msg66474#msg66474
  

  I phosphated my hinges and related parts in 95 and they still look good. i apply with a small artist brush gun oil. It will attract dust which will build up but all i do is once and while wash the parts off with hot soapy water and reapply the gun oil.

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For what else it's worth: SUPPLIER'S instructions (Palmetto Enterprises) recommend cleaning & treating the freshly-treated parts using WD-40?  https://www.palmettoenterprisesparkerizing.com

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REGARDING THE SPRINGS:  2018 discussion (GM HOOD HINGE SPRINGS) at:  http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=16476.0

To summarize/paraphrase (omitting individual links):  Seems like the hot tips are either...

• a) Evaporust soak; then "oiling or some other rust preventative" (per Chick: 68camaroz28);
• OR; b) Phosphate treatment; then oil (Dri-Touch recommended) (per Mike S);
• There was a link for Dri-Touch in the 2012 post.  Today, it seems absent from the Birchwood-Casey product offerings at:  https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/maintenance/chemicals/
• Chick (68camaroz28) also mentions ECS 'Rust Prevention Magic'.  He mentions using this on bare metal castings.  Instructions at link below don't indicate suitability for use on phosphate?
  https://ecs-automotive-concepts.myshopify.com/collections/rust-prevention/products/rust-prevention-magic-rpm-8-oz

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KICKER (FOR EXTRA POINTS):  I've seen (elsewhere) several photos/examples of cooking the RS hood latch in something like a 5-gal stew pot (With handle sticking out)... Anyone tried this, and how does it work in practice? 

I presume the RS latch assembly would have to be flipped and cooked again? (Unless you can source a big enough kettle)... Is there a concern that parts of the handle may get double-dipped?  Does this affect the finish?  any other comments??

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Personally I like the idea of matte-clear over phosphate... But not sure how this will fare over the oiled surface (whether gun oil, WD-40, K-Y jelly, or whatever...??

Help please?? MANY THANKS for all inputs... Charley

[firstgenaddict]

Matte clear will alter the look if sprayed on manganese phosphate and will not stick to anything oiled.
ALSO the Problem with clear etc is it will chip where ever something hits it and where the screws bear against it and then will rust another thing to consider is it will not gain the correct patina over time either.
Most prefer spraying with cosmoline or wipe with RPM or something like it. Wipe off the excess and let it go...
 

[169INDY]

KICKER (FOR EXTRA POINTS):  I've seen (elsewhere) several photos/examples of cooking the RS hood latch in something like a 5-gal stew pot (With handle sticking out)... Anyone tried this, and how does it work in practice?

I presume the RS latch assembly would have to be flipped and cooked again? (Unless you can source a big enough kettle)... Is there a concern that parts of the handle may get double-dipped?  Does this affect the finish?  any other comments??

My Stainless steel heated rectangle tank was not large enough for some items and a decision was made to submerge and flip: Yes, Distinct parting line formed, any post treatment grooming  was detrimental to finish, so we adopted a strategy of least observable location to determine part orientation during treatment and lived with the "resulting LINE"

TO Quote JAWS, were' gonna need a bigger boat- Sometimes compromises will and must be made.

[janobyte]

Lol! Amen brother on "sometimes compromises"  swear, was just thinking that yesterday with a small detail on the car...just can't let them add up.

Post phosphate: had better results quenching in mystery oil right out of the pot. (per Chick). Also, everything gets a wipe down, periodically, with Rem oil. They make wipes. Easy because car lives on a lift.

[70z28lt1]

I found an old SS single sink on CL.  Cut a disc form some SS and pop-riveted-and used Ultra grey to seal it.

It could fit my hood latch assembly and hood hinges (one at a time).

[Charley PHX]

I wanted to follow-up with the eventual conclusion & outcomes of the above.

Although this follow-up is seriously delayed... I wanted to say THANK YOU to everyone who provided their input.  I ended up going a different direction, but this took into consideration all the thoughts, ideas, and caveats that were offered up.  THANK YOU (again)...

..........

I ended up sending the whole kit & caboodle (2 full sets) to Jerry MacNeish.  Received return delivery yesterday... They are beautiful, and ready to bolt-on right out of the box.

While pursuing the line of Q&A above, meanwhile I had also contacted JMN for a quote. We previously had used his services to refurbish my brake booster, and my distributor, both are flawless. As discussed above, one of my main concerns was long-term maintenance. He advised me (& sent photos) he has parts he did 10 years ago (& more), that still look like new.

Taking into consideration everyone's feedback above... I costed-out the do-it-myself option (including startup costs for solution, cookware, cleanup, etc.) vs. 'outsourcing', and concluded it was pretty close to break-even. Key assumption being 'one and done'. If I intended to do this recurringly, the CBA would've swung differently.

[68camaroz28]

Well done....

[Gars68Tux]

Looks good. Question, does that RS hood release handle get black out treatment (painted)? I believe 68 was, but not sure about 67....Then again, I'm not absolutely certain about 68, either. And I don't recall if Chick ever checked Skip's car ?

[68camaroz28]

Looks good. Question, does that RS hood release handle get black out treatment (painted)? I believe 68 was, but not sure about 67....Then again, I'm not absolutely certain about 68, either. And I don't recall if Chick ever checked Skip's car ?

Garth, got me on that one and will have to look.

[Gars68Tux]

Much appreciated, Chick!

Don't know what year Charley (PHX) is workin' on, but given the criteria, "OBJECTIVE: Achieve a show-quality (i.e. points judged) finish; while also minimizing the burden for perpetual maintenance after the show's over..." suggest he does his homework regarding the finish on the RS hood release.

[Charley PHX]

What year? ...1967.  I've included a photo from teardown below (OEM finish).

Jerry's book (which seems generally accepted as gospel) calls for phosphate finish on hood latches. Over the years, i have seen numerous corroborating references (too many to count). In post #1 (above) I cited 5 separate references on CRG site located through exhaustive search (selected items curated from many others). Most recently, the new Legends manual (yeah, 1969, i know) says the same thing on pg. 115.

I decided to send them to CHP because 1) I already know Jerry does top-notch work, and 2) also i have no doubt he is familiar with the required finishes (since he wrote the book).

If there are some reference points I overlooked somehow in my 'homework', by all means please advise... I learn something new every time I browse the site... thanks!

[Gars68Tux]

I'm only referring to the handle/rod being painted black. As I stated, I'm fairly certain 68's were finished this way to help conceal the rod as it's visible through the grill. I'm not sure about 67. Thought I heard (read) years ago, a different Charley (L, aka "clill") state one of his 67's wasn't black.

Like most other factory underhood and chassis paint, coverage varied and wasn't applied with intentions of longevity. Did you notice any evidence of black paint on yours ? 

[Charley PHX]

LOL from quick response & thanks for the clarification... Maybe we both need to get more sleep!  My curiosity now having been piqued from the previous exchange... I was already looking into this further when I saw the follow-up note.

The car I think you are referring to (famously known as #92 to some of us) is on the Mecum site right now (Indy, May 2022) with a trailer load of high-res photos.  Attached below is a great close-up of the grill area (screen grab) which presents a great view of the latch handle assembly. In this view it is definitely visible, though much of the latch & handle are shaded by the valences & grill. I would say it definitely does NOT appear to be blacked-out (though this may vary according to the eye of the beholder). Also interesting to note; the lower handle is mostly concealed by the bumper.

To your question (black paint)... I never noticed it as such.  This being due largely to many years being parked & forgotten (by myself); this following many years of weather & neglect (by others), before I got serious about restoration. From the teardown photos (there are more) I would say they appear to have probably been a dark phosphate before the years of weather and rust.

[Gars68Tux]

I was thinkin' PaceCar too, but back then, I didn't know he had one..... Can't keep track of all Charley's cars... 

[Charley PHX]

Not meaning to unnecessarily prolong this thread... But by pure coincidence I have a new bit of additional information (for whatever it's worth). As I said earlier... I learn something new every time I check in here. And my knowledge of '68-'69s is nowhere near my familiarity with '67's...

Anyway. While checking-in today on my car... Became aware my builder took on a new project over the weekend... a 1968 SS396/Rally Sport.  Car is partly disassembled already, but I tracked down the hood latch assembly.  It is definitely black.  What I DON'T know (unfortunately) if that is the 'born-with' finish; or something somebody "improved" (so to speak) over the last 50 years or so (as we all know often happens)... It looks real (ish), and like there could be 50 years of dirt under the top plate... but the lower end of handle is tipped with blue spray-bomb (which leaves me wondering)...

Anyway; hope this helps for something???  Happy to look closer on my next visit (if I know what I'm looking for)...