This car is suspect.
The tag has been flagged as reproduction by the experts and I can see at least 3 things on it that do not correspond with known good tags from that time frame. Can't tell you what they are, sorry.
The M21 transmission is not that rare, it's the M22 that is.
The date codes are way to wide for this time frame.
Restamps and reproduction tags are rampant in this industry, buyer beware.
The 2008 advertisement was either way way underpriced for a matching drivetrain real X77 tag Z/28 (doubtful if seller had multiple cars), or it was a plain jane car with Z/28 tags (common).
Don't get burned on suspect cars. If you can't get an in person recognized Camaro expert opinion, pass on it or be willing to take a loss.
I understand, and I don't have the expertise to determine this, that is why I am reaching out here. That's why I have reached out to experts knowing the Transmission verifies an original stamped VIN motor. I am still working on this.
With all due respect, I can't call it a fake if I don't have proof that it is. There is as real a possibility that flagging something as a fake, drops a price, then verifying it as real after the fact gives said buyer a real advantage in suddenly being able to sell it as real.
I have verified it to be an original stamped body, with an original stamped m21 trans behind an original stamped 302 serial number that may or may not have an original stamped engine assembly stamp.
So in order to verify the original engine, if I can't trust the engine assembly stamp, I have to look at casting date codes, and serial numbers of the transmission. Although the M21 may not be as rare, it did only come with a big block or a 302 according to the research done on:
http://www.camaros.org/trans.shtml#4speed "The close-ratio M21 was available only with the SS396/350 hp (L34) engine and the solid lifter engines (Z28, L78, and COPO)."
This engine was Date coded April 1 1969, and the Build date of the car finishes on April 23 1969 (according to muscle car docs). The assembly stamp says the engine was built on April 7, which if the stamp is correct or not, still lines up with the consistency of when engines were cast and built according to:
http://www.camaros.org/drivetrain.shtml#BlockCast "The block casting date must always be before the engine assembly date and it is usually very close to engine assembly date. Blocks have been found that have been cast and assembled in the same day, but that is not normative. There are also blocks that have been cast and then assembled months later; again, that is not normative.
The engine assembly date must always be before the vehicle (not body) assembly date. The engine assembly date almost always is before the Fisher Body cowl tag date. In the unusual case it is later (since the Fisher Body calendar does not always line up with the normal calendar), it should be within a week of the body.
Most engine assembly dates are less than 30 days before the vehicle build. Some engine assembly dates can be 30-90 days before vehicle build with the odd exception being >90 days."
This engine was Cast 22 days before the car was completed, the engine was built 16 days before the car was completed, and the body started its build in the 3rd week of April, as you know, the tag does not say what day. Then the car was completed April 23, in the 4th week of April, so please tell me how dates are way to far off, I just don't see it.
http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#a "This is composed of two digits (01 thru 12 corresponding to each month of the year) and a letter (A thru E corresponding to the week of the month) and indicates when the assembly of the body was
started"
If I am missing something here (most research done on this site) then please inform me. I can't go back in time. No one will say why this tag is bad, I have tried to prove this car out to the best of my abilities, and therefore I have only a few conclusions left:
-The car is a real Black Z28, and people here just cant believe it, as these cars should be scrutinized to the max.
-Someone here wants this car, knows its original, and wants it to be underbid so they can turn a profit on it.
-The car is an original Z28, but may not have a correct Tag on it, either someone wanted to change the color, or the interior.
-Someone here built that car, and knows the secrets of it, but in order to say, would hang themselves in doing so.
-The secrets of the Tag are so deep that they can not be shared here on line, in which case there is no proof of said secrets, and therefore I cant accurately represent such a car to be a fake unless someone comes forward with definitive proof of it, but it still proves out to be a Z28 none the less. In which case, the price as advertised by my client is Accurate. (an original
black Z28 may go for more than they are asking)
However, please, add to my speculation if I am off here, I am open to options that are proven or reasonable. Either come with proof, or take the VIN off this thread please.
Seeing as the car was advertised in 2008 by a person who is unknown, with 2 different phone numbers for ads on the same car at the time, 937-314-4659 , and 786-738-6903.(and a gmail address that seems to be not responding to), who knows why they were "selling" it for $15,000. I had a client just buy a car for $65,000. The previous owner spent $200,000 on the car getting it up to racing spec in the last couple of years, and just needed to sell it quick. I have had clients buy cars for so cheep simply because the person selling had no clue of the market. I have checked out ads for clients on cars with listed VINs and pictures, and they were all scams. There are lots of reasons a car can be advertised for less than its value. Only goodsinlife knows why they advertised this car, with this VIN. Everything else is speculation.
As an aside... the Ferrari dealer in Canada who purchased N633599 from Lloyd told me that he called Macneish and told him he bought a Black 69 RS/Z... first words out of Jerry's mouth were "It's fake" he said "not likely as you certified it and it has original paint"
Jerry replied WHICH car?
Then said, "I didn't know Lloyd was selling it"
Within the art and collectibles markets there is a formula for price depression given the introduction of fakes into the market.
There are so many fake black cars that when they begin to satisfy any of the demand because the buyers believe they are real, then at that point the fakes depress the price of REAL black cars due to there being fewer buyers to drive up prices of real cars.
If you wanted to get the best deal on a real black car introducing 10 fakes into the market will satisfy some of the demand and allow the acquisition of a real one at a lower price.
I appreciate all that is said. Those are true economics. And its a real shame that people do such things. Why cant we just call a spade a spade, and leave it at that. I know people are hard up for money, I know people are greedy, but I also know not all people are that way. I hope you all see I am not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes here, I am trying my hardest to get to the bottom of this.
