GM 3941140 List 4210 1968 Z28 Holley for the crossram

[Coltdogg556]

I been trying to find information on this 4210 holley I just bought,  and not a lot of information I can find.  I emailed Jerry Macneish a few times but I hate bugging him as I know he can be a busy person.  But so far is he had been very helpful. 

I found a 4210 holley and once I got it home, i started questioning this carb. I thought all crossram carbs were double pumpers,  and without choke on them.  This one had the right numbers from what i could find with the 3941140 and List being 4210. Not so happy with the date code. It's dated 932  as I been told its a service carb, but still a 4210.

Before I got it home I sent pictures to a few friends and they all thought that some added the vacuum secondary  to it. As Jerry said that was made before the double pumpers came out.  Now I did not ask him about the choke that is on it.  And I would like to know what are the correct metering blocks for it.

I found one guy say his blocks on his 4210 is front-4743 and back is 5806.

The one I just picked up is front- 5271 and back-5806 loke the other one I seen online.   Now I would love to find a 68 inake, and the twin for this one, but i know it will be out of my reach. 

But I would love to have information on this one. As far as i can tell, the blows and blocks are the ones that came with this factory,  but I'm not a 100% sure.
Thank you for any info. 

[william]

I believe 4210s were also used on some outboard boat engines.

[z28z11]

4210's were indeed single pump carbs. No choke plate or secondary housings listed in the Holley specs for it, from the 34-1 schematics.

No marine listings, either - both your choke and vacuum secondary could have been added, or the carb could have had a later (or secondary) application not shown in my Holley parts/specs catalog.

Regards,
Steve

[z28z11]

Primary block 4743, secondary block 5806

Steve

[PHAT69AMX]

In my opinion someone added the Vacuum Diaphragm Housing & Choke Blade to that 4210 Carburetor.
Which is rather ironic as the 1967 List 3810 carburetor it was developed from had one to begin with.
Would suspect it being there with that original 1:1 Mechanical Secondary Linkage would create binding.
Surprisingly, the Bellcrank constant Radius 1:1 Ratio slot has NOT been modified, where many were.

I am rather intrigued being it does look like a Date Stamp of '932' = 1969, March, 2nd Week.
Being as that is the one and only date stamp ever seen by me on any & all 1969 List 4584 Carburetors,
which research suggest, and in my opinion are, 'renumbered, re-applied, obsoleted' by then List 4210's.

Stock 4210 Metering Blocks would have been 4743 = PRI & 5806 = SEC, as seen in the Specs image posted.
A second ironic 'twist' is notes suggest that 5271 Primary Metering Block is originally from a period List 3310.
That rivet in the passenger side is plugging the stock Ported Vacuum Port the 5271 Block had originally.

4210 pictures seen previously show Choke Blade holes but no Choke Blade.

The List 4210 3941140 was the '1st Design' released with the 3940077 CrossRam 'Induction Conversion Unit'.
It was a 585 CFM Dual Line 1:1 Cam Follower In Slot Mechanical Secondary SINGLE Squirter Carb.
It was derived from starting with a 1967 L79 327 Holley List 3810 600 CFM Vacuum Secondary Carb.
Evidence suggest ProtoType or Developmental Holley Carbs were marked with a Vibra-Etch Electronic Pen (pic).
Sometimes apparently while leaving the original stamping unaltered in whole or in part.

The 3810 Side Hung Single Inlet Bowls were replaced with 3310-like Center Hung Dual Feed Bowls,
but with a 'twist', the Fuel Inlets were tapped on the 'wrong side', the Drivers Side.
Those Fuel Bowls appear to be non-original since they are passenger side inlets, most likely also from a 3310.
Bit of a shame as the proper 4210, 4295, 4584 Driver Side Inlet Fuel Bowls are few and far between.

On the 4210, in addition to the Fuel Bowl swap, it was converted to Mechanical Secondary Linkage
with a 'new' 1:1 Ratio Cam Follower In Slot Bellcrank Like found on a List 4224 660 Center Squirter
but with an extra 'appendage' of some material on the bottom with a single ~1/4" dia hole
where the # 3941160 CrossRam 2x4 Carburetor InterLink Rod attached between the two carburetors.
That extra 'appendage' is unique to being present on only 3 Holley List Numbers, 4210, 4295, & 4584.

z29z11 - ? a request ?...  Might you be so kind as to post the List 4584 Holley Black Book Info ?...

The short lived List 4210 was relatively quickly superseded by GM with the '2nd Design' Holley List 4295
but differed in two ways, it had a PROGRESSIVE Cam Follower In 'W' Slot Linkage also with the 'appendage'
and WAS a Double Pumper.  Research shows or suggest it just so happened to have been
The Very 1st Ever Holley Double Pumper, the Holley List 4295 '2nd Design' CrossRam Carburetor.

Indications are the 4295 was co-developed with the L88 ZL1 427 850 CFM DP List 4296, also a GM '2nd Design'.
Going by Numerical Holley List Number, the 4295 was first, but
going numerically by GM Part Number the 4296 was first...   3955205 4296 850 vs 3957859 4295 585...

Appears to be a List 4210 with a Vacuum Pod added, non-stock Fuel Bowls and Primary Metering Block.

[z28z11]

Gladly - it's close to the spine of the book, hopefully you can read it.

Regards,
Steve

[PHAT69AMX]

z28z11 - Thank You !
That information helps substantiate the theory that the S/S AMX List 4584 carbs are 're-applied' Chevy List 4210's.
Almost but not quite all the Parts in that information are the same between the 4210 & 4584 other than
- the Primary Throttle Blades, 4584 being 9R-102 vs 4210 being 9R-109
  ( one may be thinner and the other thicker ),
- oddly 4584 List includes the Pump Squirter Screw & 4210 List does not for some reason
  ( maybe 4584 had a Hollow Squirter Screw ? ),
- Fuel Inlet Needle & Valve is absent from the 4584 List,
- and different Pri & Sec Jets, 4584 = # 71 Pri & # 77 Sec, where 4210 = # 69 Pri & # 70 Sec.

Significantly it shows what major parts they had in common,
- both Primary & Secondary Metering Blocks,
- the unique 'Left Handed Drivers Side' Inlet Fuel Bowls
- and the Base Plate / Throttle Plate & Shaft Assy with the unique 1:1 Cam Foller In Slot BellCrank with 'appendage'.

Thank You very much for sharing the picture

[z28z11]

No problem. Thanks for the study and the comparison - very detailed and excellent research.

Regards,
Steve

[PHAT69AMX]

Here typed up as text is the information
from the Holley Black Book posted images for
the Holley List 4210, 4295, & 4584 Carburetors
with the corresponding Part Numbers for each listed item
as found in the referenced Holley 34-1 Typical View.
Yet to determine the meaning of (ld), (llg), (llh), & (XIII) .015".
Did my best to be accurate and correct, but not guaranteed.
Please advise of any errors found, Thank You


4210 Holley List - 585 CFM 1:1 MECH SEC SINGLE PUMPER DUAL INLET
----
R-4210A, AAS (OBS.), T.V. 34-1 (Typical View)
1968 CAMARO, 302 ENG. 2 x 4 BBL.
(ld), (llg), (llh), (VI) No. 2 (Pump Cam Position), (XIII) .015".
Gasket 4-319, Renew  3-422, Master ?
( 12) 5R-155     THROTTLE STOP SCREW
( 27) 5R-635     THROTTLE PLATE SCREW - PRIMARY
( 28) 5R-635     THROTTLE PLATE SCREW - SECONDARY
( 33) 5R-682     PUMP CAM LOCK SCREW
( 34) 5R-691     FUEL PUMP COV. ASSY. SCR. & L. W.
( 61) 8R-1330    FLANGE GASKET
( 62) 9R-109     THROTTLE PLATE - PRIMARY
( 63) 9R-118     THROTTLE PLATE - SECONDARY
( 64) 12R-4089A  THROTTLE BODY & SHAFT ASSY
( 68) 16R-420A   FLOAT & HINGE ASSY - PRIMARY
( 69) 16R-420A   FLOAT & HINGE ASSY - SECONDARY
( 71) 17R-41     FLOAT LEVEL SHAFT
( 72) 6-82       FUEL INLET VALVE & SEAT ASSY ( 188P-135AS )
( 74) 19R-370    FUEL INLET FITTING
( 77) 21R-572-28 PUMP DISCHARGE NOZZLE
( 78) 22R-40-69  MAIN JET - PRIMARY ( 22BP-40-69 )
( 79) 22R-40-71  MAIN JET - SECONDARY ( 22BP-40-70 )
( 83) 6.5        POWER VALVE ASSY - PRIMARY ( 25R-591A-65AS )
(101) 34R-4743A  MAIN METERING BODY & PLUGS ASSY - PRIMARY
(102) 34R-5806A  MAIN METERING BODY & PLUGS ASSY - SECONDARY
(103) 85M-4036   FUEL PUMP COVER ASSY
(104) 34R-5058A  FUEL BOWL & PLUG ASSY - PRIMARY
(105) 34R-5753   FUEL BOWL & PLUG ASSY - SECONDARY
(120) 38R-782    PUMP LEVER ADJ. SCREW SPRING
(124) 38R-1216   FLOAT SPRING - PRIAMRY & SECONDARY
(135) 41R-218    PUMP CAM ( WHITE )
(165) 59R-37     METERING BODY VENT BAFFLE
(166) 59R-79?    FLOAT SHAFT RETAINER BRACKET
(168) 63R-782    DIAPHRAM LEVER ASSY ( SEC SHAFT END PIECE )
(169) 63R-740    PUMP OPERATING LEVER
(176) 37R-257    ? NOT IN LIST OF 34-1 TYPICAL VIEW DRAWING

======================================

4295 Holley List - 585 CFM PROGRESSIVE MECH SEC DOUBLE PUMPER DUAL INLET
----
R-4295A, AAS (OBS.) T.V. 34-1 (Typical View)
1969 CAMARO, 302 ENG. 2 x 4 BBL. Dual Pump
(ld), (llg), (llh), (VI) No. 2 (Pump Cam Position), (XIII) .015".
Gasket 4-226, Renew 3-488, Master 85R-3287
( 12) 5R-155     THROTTLE STOP SCREW
( 27) 5R-635     THROTTLE PLATE SCREW - PRIMARY
( 28) 5R-635     THROTTLE PLATE SCREW - SECONDARY
( 33) 5R-682     PUMP CAM LOCK SCREW
( 34) 5R-691     FUEL PUMP COV. ASSY. SCR. & L. W.
( 61) 8R-1330    FLANGE GASKET
( 62) 9R-109     THROTTLE PLATE - PRIMARY
( 63) 9R-118     THROTTLE PLATE - SECONDARY
( 64) 12R-4247A  THROTTLE BODY & SHAFT ASSY
( 68) 16R-420A   FLOAT & HINGE ASSY - PRIMARY
( 69) 16R-420A   FLOAT & HINGE ASSY - SECONDARY
( 71) 17R-41     FLOAT LEVEL SHAFT
( 72) 6-71       FUEL INLET VALVE & SEAT ASSY ( 188P-135AS )
( 74) 19R-370    FUEL INLET FITTING
( 77) 21R-572-25 PUMP DISCHARGE NOZZLE
( 78) 22R-40-69  MAIN JET - PRIMARY ?
( 79) 22R-40-71  MAIN JET - SECONDARY ?
( 83) 6.5        POWER VALVE ASSY - PRIMARY ( 25R-591A-65AS )
(101) 34R-5882A  MAIN METERING BODY & PLUGS ASSY - PRIMARY
(102) 34R-5885A  MAIN METERING BODY & PLUGS ASSY - SECONDARY
(103) 85M-4036   FUEL PUMP COVER ASSY
(104) 34R-5893A  FUEL BOWL & PLUG ASSY - PRIMARY
(105) 34R-5887A  FUEL BOWL & PLUG ASSY - SECONDARY
(118) 38R-569    PUMP DIAPHRAM RETURN SPRING ( 38R-1375 )
(120) 38R-782    PUMP LEVER ADJ. SCREW SPRING
(124) 38R-1216   FLOAT SPRING - PRIAMRY & SECONDARY
(135) 41R-218    PUMP CAM ( WHITE )
(166) 59R-79     FLOAT SHAFT RETAINER BRACKET
(168) 63R-822    DIAPHRAM LEVER ASSY ( SEC SHAFT END PIECE )
(169) 63R-740    PUMP OPERATING LEVER
(176) 37R-257    ? NOT IN LIST OF 34-1 TYPICAL VIEW DRAWING
*(118).          ? PUMP DIAPHRAM RETURN SPRING ( 38R-1375 )

* = The following INDEX NUMBERS differ from the NUMERICAL LISTING SECTION.
( note from bottom of page of Holley Black Book )
=============================

4584 Holley List - 570 CFM 1:1 MECH SEC SINGLE PUMPER DUAL INLET
----
R-4584AAS (OBS.) T.V. (Typical View) 34-1
1970 HURST SUPER AMX. 390 ENG. CROSS RAM 2 x 4 BBL.
(ld), (llg), (llh), (VI) No. 2 (Pump Cam Position), (XIII) .015".
Gasket 4-319, Renew 3-422, Master ? (Black Diamond Symbol)
( 12) 5R-155     THROTTLE STOP SCREW
( 27) 5R-635     THROTTLE PLATE SCREW - PRIMARY
( 28) 5R-635     THROTTLE PLATE SCREW - SECONDARY
( 30) 5R-854     PUMP DISCHARGE NOZZLE SCREW
( 33) 5R-682     PUMP CAM LOCK SCREW
( 34) 5R-691     FUEL PUMP COV. ASSY. SCR. & L. W.
( 61) 8R-1330    FLANGE GASKET
( 62) 9R-102     THROTTLE PLATE - PRIMARY
( 63) 9R-118     THROTTLE PLATE - SECONDARY
( 64) 12R-4089A  THROTTLE BODY & SHAFT ASSY
( 68) 16R-420A   FLOAT & HINGE ASSY - PRIMARY
( 69) 16R-420A   FLOAT & HINGE ASSY - SECONDARY
( 71) 17R-41     FLOAT LEVEL SHAFT
( 74) 19R-370    FUEL INLET FITTING
( 77) 21R-572-28 PUMP DISCHARGE NOZZLE
( 78) 22R-40-71  MAIN JET - PRIMARY ( 22BP-40-71 )
( 79) 22R-40-77  MAIN JET - SECONDARY ( 22BP-40-77 )
( 83) 6.5        POWER VALVE ASSY - PRIMARY ( 25R-591A-65AS )
(101) 34R-4743A  MAIN METERING BODY & PLUGS ASSY - PRIMARY
(102) 34R-5806A  MAIN METERING BODY & PLUGS ASSY - SECONDARY
(103) 85M-4036   FUEL PUMP COVER ASSY
(104) 34R-5058A  FUEL BOWL & PLUG ASSY - PRIMARY
(105) 34R-5753   FUEL BOWL & PLUG ASSY - SECONDARY
(120) 38R-782    PUMP LEVER ADJ. SCREW SPRING
(124) 38R-1216   FLOAT SPRING - PRIAMRY & SECONDARY
(135) 41R-218    PUMP CAM ( WHITE )
(165) 57R-37     METERING BODY VENT BAFFLE
(166) 59R-79     FLOAT SHAFT RETAINER BRACKET
(169) 63R-740    PUMP OPERATING LEVER
(176) 37R-257    ? NOT IN LIST OF 34-1 TYPICAL VIEW DRAWING
*(30).           ? PUMP DISCHARGE NOZZLE SCREW

* = The following INDEX NUMBERS differ from the NUMERICAL LISTING SECTION.
( note from bottom of page of Holley Black Book )
===========================

[PHAT69AMX]

Coltdogg556 -  hoping to contact you by telephone with a question - will send you a forum private message.

[PHAT69AMX]

May I ask, who if anyone, that may have on-hand a Holley List 4210 Carburetor and/or a Holley List 4295 Carburetor, both GM original Z28 302 Crossram Conversion Kit # 3940077 Kit carbs, 1st Design & 2nd Design, and might be so kind, willing, & generous to MEASURE, Pin Gauge, all the FIXED ORIFICE SIZES found in those 2 Carburetors, record, document, and SHARE that critical specific detailed dimensional information so that it is captured and not lost to history   No where known does that all important functional information exist, and it would be a wise & prudent thing to capture it, would it not ?  Here are "Blank Forms" to record the dimensional values on, then scan, post, & share, addition of the unlabeled Emulsion Bleeds & Kill Bleed, if present, should be added to the "Form" actually.  Thank You, Hope all is well with you and yours.  Peace