Body/cowl tag - is it original

[x66 714]

No it is not. When I see a repro dash top, I want the cowl grille removed for a good look [top and bottom] at the hidden VIN. If the seller doesn't agree, walk.

BTW AZ does inspect and re-VIN cars. 

Yes they do...Joe

[william]

Roger, don't allow this discussion to dissuade you. Proceed with caution; speak with AZ DMV about the re-install of the VIN tag. My guess, there was no fraud intended.

BTW this situation is not unique to Camaros or even '60s muscle cars. Porsches, GT40s, vintage race cars, virtually any collectible marque has had problems with altered provenance.

[Sauron327]

At one time it was possible to acquire OE rosette rivets but I believe that has been shut down.

Still can be easily purchased on-line.

[RogerN]

What does it mean that the car is, or is not on the CRG list(s)?

Thank you guys for your help. I feel much better prepared now to examine this car, and I have learned a heckuva lot.

[william]

The CRG has a data base of first-gen Camaro info. Typically VIN, body tag, stampings, build configuration. While much of it is from existing cars, some is from dealership paperwork or old ads; many of those cars no longer exist. It was never intended to be a registry. Owners contributed info on their cars with the understanding it would remain private.

[KurtS]

The dash is a repair part. It's normal/acceptable to replace it.
Most states/inspectors won't check the rivets. More likely they will look at the hidden VINs though. As will many buyers....

[bcmiller]

The dash is a repair part. It's normal/acceptable to replace it.
Most states/inspectors won't check the rivets. More likely they will look at the hidden VINs though. As will many buyers....

Exactly!

Problems arise when a tag or tags are swapped from one body to another. That is a crime.

[william]

I have attended 27 collector car auctions over the past 10 years or so. This is new; the first time I have seen a notification such as this. It tells me auction companies are verifying VIN tag integrity because there have been registration problems. As fraud becomes more common, the scrutiny intensifies.

The VIN tag in the photo is on a car currently for sale. Imagine this car sitting in an impound lot for weeks while your lawyer and DMV sort it out. Then the state slaps their own VIN tag on it.

[bcmiller]

Here is a problem. I have seen more than one VIN tag attached to it’s correct original body by original rivets where one or both are NOT the rosette rivets. That in itself is not an issue.

[william]

Yes; some '67 Camaros are like that.

The Mecum statement is making potential bidders aware of some discrepancy with the VIN tag on that lot. You pays your money and you takes your chances. If there is a problem later on, don't call them.

http://www.superchevy.com/videos/vin-plate-removal-and-replacement/0_jdj79iiy/

[ko-lek-tor]

Just to simplify the discussion. Only 2 reasons to remove a VIN tag off dash on 68-9 Camaro (door jamb 67),
1) to make a repair- dash commonly rusts out.
2) to fraudulently transfer to another body.
1- is not ideal, but acceptable if done correctly(many will go so far as to section in the part of the old dash with VIN, just so there is no question of tampering. There are 2 places on the cowl where a partial sequential vin is stamped for theft/insurance and all 3 should line up as the same sequential number.
2- the vin tag will not match the other 2 stamped numbers and is done as a misrepresenting, fraudulent, when a title does not exist for various reasons or the body the tag came off was destroyed. Tainted not legal or acceptable.

[RogerN]

Thank you all for all the useful information!

Now that I know that at least the body/trim tag is authentic/original, I will make it a priority to check the cowl tag under the air vent on the passenger side to see if it matches the VIN on the dash when I go to see the car in a couple of days. If that looks good, I will go on to the rest of the car.

I now need some additional information and/or opinions. Forgive the long post, I can't think of any way to shorten it.

I talked to the previous owner of this car (he owned it for 6 years) yesterday and he told me the following about this '69 Camaro X33 car:

- When he bought the car (around 2013) it had a 327 engine in it. He shopped around and found all of the parts (used) to replace it with a 302.
   - 350 block (4 bolt mains) from a '70 Impala (dated '69 )
   - GM/Holley carb (rebuilt) for Z28
   - Intake manifold for 302
   - Valve covers (finned) for 302 (not drippers)
   - 302 crank
   - Aftermarket pistons (he thinks they were TRW)
   - Deep groove pulley for crank, none of the others are

- He rebuilt the resulting 302 engine and it was in the car until he sold it.
 .
- The car had front disks but no power steering. He installed power steering from a '70 Impala with new pitman and idler arms.   

- The 4 speed transmission (Muncie I assume) in the car is rebuilt and is from a '69 Corvette.
- He believes the car has a 4.11 rear end. Does not know if its original to the car or not.
- He replaced the front coil springs with the 'correct' Moog springs.
- The car had 5-leaf springs when he got it. He removed two of the springs to improve the ride, so there are now 3 leafs. 
- He does not know if the cowl induction hood on the car is original or not. The car has been repainted to the factory color.
- It has no spoiler on the rear trunk lid.
- It has a '71 steering wheel from Camaro or Impala (or something).
- No panels have been replaced that he knows of.


The current owner bought the car from the previous owner about a year ago. A few months ago the engine broke/blew a valve.

He had the engine rebuilt to what he says are true 302 specs:
- Sleeved cylinders #7 and #2 (apparently scored, etc.) and replaced two pistons.
- Washed and replaced cam bearings and freeze plugs.
- Reman rods
- Ground the crank
- New Z28 solid cam and lifters
- Everything machined/honed as necessary.

He says the shop/mechanic that did it has done many. I talked with the mechanic who seems competent.

The engine was installed in the car and now has less than 100 miles on it. I heard it run on a video. it sounds good.


Well, there is everything I know. From the research of cars for sale that I have done, the car seems to be a good value - unless there are any red flags that I am missing.

What do you guys think?

[william]

I don’t like it one bit. It is a hodgepodge of missing and incorrect parts. Poor resale color.

-aftermarket aluminum radiator
-chrome fender braces
-wrong alternator
-wrong distributor
-incorrect master cylinder
-muffler shop exhaust system
-missing AIR system
-Hood was added

Engine is little more than a NAPA short block and adds nothing to the car. That and the non-OE trans kill the cars’ future desirability and resale. Remember, someday you’re going to want to move it.

This nom Z/28 is many times better with a lower asking price. Still took some time to sell.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z-28-X77/124188221885?hash=item1cea31e1bd:g:-W0AAOSwK3tevbmS

This view of the chassis shows what looks to be a cobbled up trans crossmember. No idea what that is.

[RogerN]

Yeah, it is not as original as I had hoped. Wish I had seen that one on ebay. It seems like it was a pretty good deal. I guess all it had against it was some rusted panels that needed to be patched, and then a repaint would required I assume. That would mean the price of a paint job I was not counting on ($3-$20k I assume).

Aside from the one I am looking at and this one on ebay, I haven't seen any '69 Z28's (original or not) for less than about $54k. I haven't been watching ebay though, just classiccars.com and autotrader classics and craigslist. Have you seen many Z28's in this price range?

Is the wierd support you are referencing in the pic the tranny support? Could that and the rest of the stuff on this car that is not original be swapped out for the real stuff without too much cost? I actually wouldn't mind doing that if it is cost-effective. I think I can get the car for around $42-$43K.

I kind of like the Mist Green color. I guess it's not the best for resale? I haven't seen that many.

The reason I was looking at this car is because it has no rust and it was what I thought a pretty good price - and it is relatively close to me. I was thinking it was not a bad deal if it at least it had an engine, tranny, etc. that had period-correct date codes even if they were not original.

Can you still actually get the parts to build a 302 (crank, heads, etc.), on a NAPA block?

[rich69rs]

I know you are looking for a Z, which is great.  William mentioned many items in the previous post for you to consider.

How are you planning on using the car?  Investment? Race it? Daily driver? Cruise around town & on the highway? 

I would encourage you to make sure the performance aspects / driving characteristics of the car you are considering are aligned with what you expect to experience from behind the wheel.

If you really want a Z then keep doing your due diligence and stay focused on your goal.  If you are looking for a good cruising ride that will turn heads, you have options beyond a Z.

Just a thought.

Richard