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Author Topic: Body/cowl tag - is it original  (Read 15200 times)

RogerN

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Body/cowl tag - is it original
« on: May 31, 2020, 03:24:41 AM »
I am considering purchasing this car. I have done a lot of research to prepare, but I am wondering if those here with experience can tell me if this tag looks original or not. Thanks for any help and/or information!
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x66 714

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2020, 03:28:29 AM »
Roger. If you have the vin. That would also help....Joe
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See America's First, Chevrolet

1968 Z/28 Corvette Bronze. Black Hounds Tooth. 02E Los Angeles born 3/13/1968 pnt OO. Purchased March 1976
1969 SS396 Yellow/Yellow 08E Norwood born 8/28/1969 pnt 76E. Purchased April 1981

RogerN

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2020, 03:54:48 AM »
124379N618321
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ZLP955

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2020, 05:13:56 AM »
Upper dash panel (at least) has been replaced during the restoration. Not a reason to look elsewhere, just saying you need to check everything out (including the 2 hidden partial VINs) in person to be sure what you're looking at is as represented.
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Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA.
AHRA Formula Stock at Lions Dragstrip, NHRA E/MP at Pomona Raceway

RogerN

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2020, 08:30:11 AM »
How can you tell the upper dash panel has been replaced?  2 hidden partial VINs?
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ZLP955

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2020, 09:46:39 AM »
Quote from: RogerN on May 31, 2020, 08:30:11 AM
How can you tell the upper dash panel has been replaced?  2 hidden partial VINs?
Read this for the partial VIN details: http://www.camaros.org/numbers.shtml#PartialVIN
The VIN plate cutout in the upper dash on many reproduction panels differs from the factory originals in a couple of details.
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Tim in Australia.
1969 04A Van Nuys Z/28. Cortez Silver, Dark Blue interior, VE3, Z21, Z23, D55/U17, D80, flat hood.
Sold at Clippinger Chevrolet in Covina, CA.
AHRA Formula Stock at Lions Dragstrip, NHRA E/MP at Pomona Raceway

william

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2020, 02:59:10 PM »
The window for the VIN tag on a '69 dash had radiused corners with a rolled edge. The repro dash top is poorly made in that it uses the '68 style VIN window. This is how it should appear.

The larger issue is the VIN tag had to be removed from the dash for the replacement. That means the special rosette rivets GM used to retain the tag are likely gone and common pop rivets used for the replacement. Apparently, some states now check for these rivets while registering cars brought in from out of state. Saw this warning on a car at Mecum Glendale so it may become an issue.

Another potential problem. Was the VIN tag reattached to the body it was removed from? If it wasn't, the hidden VIN stampings won't match. The car may be impounded until the discrepancy is sorted out.

« Last Edit: May 31, 2020, 04:17:41 PM by william »
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RogerN

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2020, 04:28:08 PM »
William - thanks for the reply. Wow... this more complicated than I thought it would be.

So, if a repro dash was installed, would it come with a repro VIN tag (like apparently was done here)? If so, why would the VIN tag need to be removed from the original dash? And where would it be reattached to the car?

Here in Arizona, they have never visually inspected any cars I have purchased in other states. Do they do a visual inspection on cars that are older like this one?

How would the hidden VIN stampings not match the dash VIN tag if the VIN on the repro replacement dash is the same as the original VIN?

Many thanks for the help!

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Sauron327

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2020, 04:42:09 PM »
A repro dash does not come with a repro VIN tag. The original VIN gets riveted to the repro dash. AMD makes a dash with the rounded corners ifor the VIN hole but the edges are not rolled. The stamping is also not correct and the VIN tag will not locate properly in the hole. I just went through this and had to graft in part of the original VIN hole area into the AMD dash. The repro speaker hole slots are also different from original.
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x66 714

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2020, 04:42:47 PM »
That's providing the builder used the vin from that car. Shady things happen....Joe
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See America's First, Chevrolet

1968 Z/28 Corvette Bronze. Black Hounds Tooth. 02E Los Angeles born 3/13/1968 pnt OO. Purchased March 1976
1969 SS396 Yellow/Yellow 08E Norwood born 8/28/1969 pnt 76E. Purchased April 1981

RogerN

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2020, 04:51:44 PM »
I get it now... the original VIN tag should (hopefully) stay with the car. It is the window in the dash pad that is the issue. Makes sense that people should not be manufacturing repro/replacement/counterfeit VIN tags.

Well, this is a real education.
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x66 714

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2020, 04:55:26 PM »
Quote from: RogerN on May 31, 2020, 04:51:44 PM
I get it now... the original VIN tag should (hopefully) stay with the car. It is the window in the dash pad that is the issue. Makes sense that people should not be manufacturing repro/replacement/counterfeit VIN tags.

Well, this is a real education.

I told you it would be talking with these guys. They're the best of the best....Joe
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See America's First, Chevrolet

1968 Z/28 Corvette Bronze. Black Hounds Tooth. 02E Los Angeles born 3/13/1968 pnt OO. Purchased March 1976
1969 SS396 Yellow/Yellow 08E Norwood born 8/28/1969 pnt 76E. Purchased April 1981

william

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2020, 05:14:38 PM »
The repro 'dash' is just the top. Has to be spliced into the original dash structure. Virtually always replaced due to rust. It is not legal to reproduce original VIN tags. When the top was replaced, the VIN tag was removed from the original and reinstalled into the repro. At one time it was possible to acquire OE rosette rivets but I believe that has been shut down. The VIN tag shown is an original.

Why would the hidden VINs not match the dash VIN? To clarify, only the last 8 characters of the VIN comprise the hidden VINs. The subject car should have 9N618321 stamped on top of the cowl and under the heater cover. The stamp on top may be visible through the rh cowl vent grille. They don't match when a different body was used to restore the car due to extensive rust or race car modifications. Most of the body snatchers also swap out the hidden VINs; that is often detectable. There are other 'tells'. Not uncommon with high-value Camaros; seen several disclosed rebodies at auction.

Currently two cars on ebay with VIN issues.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z-28/114242969675?hash=item1a9969604b:g:Ze4AAOSwcv9e0xgC&vxp=mtr

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1969-Chevrolet-Camaro-Yenko-Style/153949091771?hash=item23d814b7bb:g:8G0AAOSwJVxen~fi&vxp=mtr

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x66 714

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2020, 05:21:58 PM »
William. Is this car on any of CRGs list? I met Roger at a car show last night & we talked a lot about this car. He doesn't want to make a poor investment...Joe
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See America's First, Chevrolet

1968 Z/28 Corvette Bronze. Black Hounds Tooth. 02E Los Angeles born 3/13/1968 pnt OO. Purchased March 1976
1969 SS396 Yellow/Yellow 08E Norwood born 8/28/1969 pnt 76E. Purchased April 1981

william

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Re: Body/cowl tag - is it original
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2020, 05:32:57 PM »
No it is not. When I see a repro dash top, I want the cowl grille removed for a good look [top and bottom] at the hidden VIN. If the seller doesn't agree, walk.

BTW AZ does inspect and re-VIN cars. 

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