67 Pace cars

[JimM]

This is yet again some serious splitting hairs. The argument seems to center on the definition of "delivery."

At least as I see it, Chevrolet Engineering isn't in the business of delivering cars, assembly plants did that.

As the documentation proves, Charlies car was "assembled" by the assembly plant as an L78, and according to the VIN's, body numbers, and date cordes, it was the very first one. The assembly plant "delivered" the car to Chevrolet engineering.

Per the work order, Chevrolet Engineering replaced the L78 drivetrain with an L35 drivetrain, and did other work to prep the car to pace the race and ensure it would hold together.

I've had the pleasure of seeing and touching Charlies Pace Car. It is truly remarkable, like stepping back in time. Charlie told me at that time that he still has the original title, and IT IS TITLED TO Chevrolet Engineering!

So let's put this to bed. If Chevrolet Engineering titled the car, they OWNED it, and therefore they did not "DELIVER" it to anyone!

[Charley]

It is actually titled to Chevrolet Motor Division, Indianapolis Indiana. I think that was a zone office ?

[JimM]

oops, still makes no difference, at least not to me.

[Pacecarjeff]

So I guess you would have to call that car "day 2" I guess there is nothing wrong with that.
Might even be worth more that way??  Never know, - since Chevrolet did it and all?

[Remaining content deleted by Rich]

[clwilcox]

It's his car, he can do what he wants with it IMO.

Interesting read never-the-less.  I at least learned more about the cars.

[67ModTop]

It is the Indianapolis Zone Office. All the known Pace Cars were titled in the Zone name.

[Pacecarjeff]

Post deleted by Rich.

[KurtS]

Jeff,

This site welcomes polite and intelligent discussions.

I do not believe your recent posts involve either of those features. You are not adding anything constructive to this discussion. I would call it badgering instead.

Please discontinue posting on this thread.

We have only revoked someone's forum privileges once before.  Please don't become number two.  This is your first warning.  You have only one more warning available.
If any of this is unclear, please send myself or Rich a private message /email and we will be happy to clarify it.



Thank you,
Kurt Sonen

[Steve Shauger]

I believe that keeping it titeld in Chevrolet Motor Division is absolutely great...it adds to its provenance. My specialty insurance allows me to insure cars that are not titled/registered, so I see no problem.  

[ccargo]

Jerry, I hope you will follow up on the quest for the L78/Jenkins engineering work order? I think that information might be valuable for both the NHRA and Pace Car programs given the time line in question. I didnt get a chance to complete my initial query in the other thread but was just contemplating the idea of a new L78 RPO and the fact that we have engineering data on both coupe and convertible examples at roughly the same time period. It might also include information on an L78/M40 test combination? Something I think they might have been toying with regarding the 500 pace cars.

[xplantdad]

It was also very fun to drive! Charley allowed me that honor at Vettefest last November.



There's an interesting point brought up on another forum regarding this...

I can't say that I agree with your thought process regarding whether CL's Pacer was a factory L-78.  It was certainly built on the assembly line as an L-78.  There are documented ZL-1's that had the AL engine pulled in order to move them off the lot and they are certainly considered ZL-1 cars today.

BTW, thanks to Kurt for his help with my brother's 1967 RS/SS 396 and I hope that the info that we gave to him and Daniel were of some value. Thanks for having this site available for people

[JoeC]

What are C B C vehicles? Maybe some type of test car or engineering fleet car?

In the last paragraph of the 2nd page of the GM documentation Phil posted above  it says that
" C B C vehicles" will be used to provide components then says power trains removed to be reinstalled in fleet vehicles.

Sounds like the work order is saying to swap the power trains from the pace cars with the power trains C B C vehicles?

Charlie, does your car have any numbers on the engine stamp pad?

[Jonesy]

This is unbelieveable. I cant believe this post lasted as long as it did.

I am glad Kurt stepped in.

Nice car and piece of Chevrolet History Charlie!

[Charley]

Thanks Jonesy. Joe. Yes my cars engine has the vin from another car but that car has not been found.

[KurtS]

Tony, an interesting post, which begs some questions.

The 4K car that is in question, I believe, was one of the Display cars that could have been found at the Indy Museum or at the Murat Temple.
I have verified that at least two display cars were delivered to Indy. Just as today, the Museum always displays a mocked up Pace Car.

What leads you to believe that an L78 car would have been one of the display cars and not an L35 car?
Couldn't this L78 have had other potential uses at Indy?

It is the first time in Indy history that the Pace Cars were considered modified. Although, not much by today's standards,but nevertheless modified for the day.
 Do to Speedway rules for Pace Car qualification and Chevrolet's hasty effort to debut to "the Industry" the NEW L78 motors in the Pace Car,  these cars had to be changed into the hybrid animals that Charley and the Clarey's have today..or more like what just Charley has today.

I'm not familiar with any requirements that Indy puts on pace cars. Do you have any documentation on this?
Are you saying that due to Speedway rules, the L78 couldn't be used? This I find hard to believe, since the L78 was a widely available RPO by May.

The original third car was made into a test mule as stated by Phil. The fact that an L78 could not of had a automatic in 1967 is only true for public sales. The Chevrolet Proving ground Mechanics had the inherent problems that existed when mating a L78 up with a Turbo 400 worked out before the end of the first day of Pace Car trials. The only stated reason for the L78's being pulled is because they made a "Terrible racket" as described by one of the Indy Zone managers that I interviewed.

There is the practical issue of making the L78/M40 combo work, but on a higher level, Chevrolet may have chosen not to use a non-available powertrain in the pacers. If the issue was solely a noise issue, then why not use a L35/M20 combo? It would have only required swapping out the engine.

So when it comes to the car that Jeff is talking about, which I believe to be this car (or one just like it). The "System" had already had it scheduled to be a L78, not for Pace Car duties, but to show it off to the ever pressing crowds that visit the Indy Museum and the Murat Temple at this time of year, the NEW L78 motor available to the Camaro.   

This is stated as fact. Is it or is it the current working theory?

Thanks!
Kurt