67 Pace cars

[Steve Shauger]

Thanks for clearing that up Kurt. And just to clarify it a bit further this 4K car was NOT the #3 pace car, rather just a regular festival car.

[Pacecarjeff]

If you can consider the ONLY L78 to make it out of production "regular"

[Steve Shauger]

I was referring to Kurts definition of regular, which you agreed with previously. "(regular here meaning it was not one of the pacers)"


Also you now agree that the statement you made " So if Chevrolet didn't want it to be a L78, why do you think it should be?
The first and only Real 4K pacecar is the #3 car Period." is not true.

[Charley]

It is very clear that the two Pace cars made it out of production as L78's also. The fact that they were later converted at engineering to L35's proves your above statement wrong.

[Pacecarjeff]

No way Steve - those 2 track cars were not L78's.
Chevrolet made those cars as L35's.  It's all there right in the paperwork.
Doesn't mater what the initial order was - When CHEVROLET was ready to deliver those 2 cars - they were L35's
And they will always be L35's in my opinion.
I will say it again--  READ MY LIPS -- The first and only Real 4K 67 pacecar is the #3 car. Period

[Steve Shauger]

Sorry, I pasted too much of your statement. Let try this:

Also you now agree that the statement you made " The first and only Real 4K pacecar is the #3 car Period." is not true.

[Pacecarjeff]

So based on the fact that you now finally admit that Chevrolet engineering converted the 2 cars to a L35 engine.
Because as you said a L78 was NEVER going to pace the race...

Your statements prove (as well as the conversion paperwork) - that it could not possibly be a L78.
That just made my whole case.

The Pace CArs were "delivered" as prepped L35's


It is so silly... again
You can't have it both ways - you have to decide.
If you want a L78 -- install an L78 engine.
If you want to keep it ORIGINAL -- keep your L35 T400

Chevrolet built and delivered a L35

Tell me yoiu have more- you are not baseing everything on those 2 pieces of paper?

[Steve Shauger]

Lets stick to the #3 car we were discussing, rather than make it too confusing , unless thats your intent. Since you only seem to agree/ understand Kurts statement, this is what you agreed with previously when Kurt stated it. Then disputed it when I stated it.

 "There was a pacer that at the event that was a 4K L78. This is an 04D car and is the car that Jeff is referring to. So far, it's the only IPC that's been found that has been a 4K car. Since it was a regular car (regular here meaning it was not one of the pacers)"

It was a regular pace car NOT a car that was prepped or paced the event, therefore it was NOT the #3 pace car.

[KurtS]

Jeff,
Slow down.

No way Steve - those 2 track cars were not L78's.
Chevrolet made those cars as L35's.  It's all there right in the paperwork.
Doesn't mater what the initial order was - When CHEVROLET was ready to deliver those 2 cars - they were L35's
And they will always be L35's in my opinion.
I will say it again--  READ MY LIPS -- The first and only Real 4K 67 pacecar is the #3 car. Period

Let's work on definitions:
Factory configuation - configuration as built by Norwood (in this case).

My statement says that both #90 and #92 were both factory L78 cars. Both were then converted to L35/M40 spec for the pacer duty.

Both were original L78 cars and neither were in that configuration at the race.

The 4K car is the only *known* 4K car that was at Indy, and the only *known* L78 in it's original factory L78 configuration at the race. There may be others, who know if they will ever surface.

I'm not quite sure why you refer to the 4K car as #3. It was one of many IPC there at the race. IIRC, only the festival cars were in the parade, and since it was not a festival car, it probably didn't circle the track.

[Pacecarjeff]

No one was ever talking about anything except the fact that the #1 car was not delivered as a L-78.
It has become obvious to me that Grumpy's car was without a doubt - the first Chevrolet Delivered L78 Camaro

Not counting the initial test cars - which Grumpy was likely heavly involved with.
Since the 67 Track cars were delivered to the race as L35's, and that was the first time they were released from production, by GM
In my mind that is what they are  - L35's --Sorry if this upsets anyone.

I call it #3, because that is what the guy writing the book calls it.
He documented that it circled the track as the "something " car,  I don't remember anymore.
And then it was set over on display.

You guys are twisting this around, and the arguments are getting incredibly BORING.  (not you Kurt)
I am going to bed, all you guys should too.

Thanks for the PMs and emails supporting me - I appreciate all the encourgment. 
(even thouigh no one would post)

[Jerry@CHP]

While I can appreciate all of the history surrounding the Indy pace cars and their history, the Jenkins car is what really put these cars on the map.  Open up any hot rod magazine from summer of '67 until spring of '68.  The #777 car of B. Jenkins (Grumpy's Toy III) got more publicity and ink than any other Camaro during the 1967 model year.  That is a fact.  Also, it was on the cover of the Jan '68 issue of Super Stock.  

I was 16 when I first saw the Jenkins car race at Cecil County and Capital Raceway.  Beleve me when I say, this car took the NHRA Super Stock class by storm.  Words cannot express your emotions when you heard this car through open headers going through the gears down the quarter mile.  It was the Jenkins car that influenced most people to check off the L78 box on the Camaro order form at the dealership.

Jerry  

[Charley]

Jeff you are splitting hairs on delivery as a L78. The Pace cars left the plant-assembly lines as L78's. There is a protecto-plate for mine as a L78. They were released from production as L78's. They then went to engineering and were converted to L35's. I stated in a earlier post that the Grumpy car might have been the first L78 built to be sold to the public. I don't need to admit they were L35's, I never denied they were. Chevrolet built and delivered a L78. Chevrolet engineering converted them to L35's.

 As for the Grumpy car being what put these cars on the map I guess that could be true if you were a drag racer or read Hot Rod magazine but the bulk of the population were not drag racers and did not read hot rod magazines. I can appreciate your view Jerry but I also have to consider that you are a die hard drag racer and it really would seem that way to you.  I don't doubt that many of the L78 Camaros were ordered after seeing Grumpy run. There was a whole country that also watched the Indy 500. When I was a kid, the Indy 500 was a huge deal. I never paid attention to Pace cars but I know the 500 was big. The Camaro was big and it was Chevrolets answer to the Mustang. I think the Camaro was big without Grumpy and without The Pace car or the Indy 500.

[KurtS]

Jeff,
I clearly defined what factory meant. Please define "Chevrolet Delivered".

Since the 67 Track cars were delivered to the race as L35's, and that was the first time they were released from production, by GM
In my mind that is what they are  - L35's --Sorry if this upsets anyone.

Those are two conflicting statements.
#90 and #92 were built (released) by production as factory L78 cars.
They were then modified by Chevrolet Engineering to L35/M40 cars.
That doesn't change the fact that they left the factory as L78 cars.

Let's keep Grumpy's car out of this topic. The pacers are the topic.

[67ModTop]

I'm not sure if I should jump in here but it's time to clarify what I believe Jeff is talking about in regards to the #3 Pace Car.
 
The 4K car that is in question, I believe, was one of the Display cars that could have been found at the Indy Museum or at the Murat Temple.
I have verified that at least two display cars were delivered to Indy. Just as today, the Museum always displays a mocked up Pace Car. In 1967, the original plan was to deliver 3 L78's. One for the Pace Car duties, one as a "back up" and one to be given to the winner of the race.

1967 was a year of many firsts, when it comes to the Pace Cars that were selected to pull the duties at Indy, this statement couldn't be truer. It is the first time in Indy history that the Pace Cars were considered modified. Although, not much by today's standards,but nevertheless modified for the day.
 Do to Speedway rules for Pace Car qualification and Chevrolet's hasty effort to debut to "the Industry" the NEW L78 motors in the Pace Car,  these cars had to be changed into the hybrid animals that Charley and the Clarey's have today..or more like what just Charley has today.
 The original third car was made into a test mule as stated by Phil. The fact that an L78 could not of had a automatic in 1967 is only true for public sales. The Chevrolet Proving ground Mechanics had the inherent problems that existed when mating a L78 up with a Turbo 400 worked out before the end of the first day of Pace Car trials.
  The only stated reason for the L78's being pulled is because they made a "Terrible racket" as described by one of the Indy Zone managers that I interviewed. And Chevrolet didn't want to chance anyone in the crowd or, god forbid, anyone watching at home to ask themselves..WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE CAMARO PACE CAR SOUND!!!!!!!

 So when it comes to the car that Jeff is talking about, which I believe to be this car (or one just like it). The "System" had already had it scheduled to be a L78, not for Pace Car duties, but to show it off to the ever pressing crowds that visit the Indy Museum and the Murat Temple at this time of year, the NEW L78 motor available to the Camaro.   

 Note about the car pictured.

 The Pace Cars and Pace Car replicas were numbered based on there delivery date. This car is #124 which is perfect for an 04D build car. We already have an 04C car which is # 117. 
 There are no other vintage pictures to date showing other replicas with Flags. Just the true Pace cars which all had white rears!
 

[Pacecarjeff]

Thanks T, that is really cool stuff.

Lets see if I can explain how I feel in layman's terms...
I walk in to Burger King with my wife.
I order the Bacon Double Cheeseburger, Stella orders a salad. (she always orders the salad) 

I had been fixing a broken distributor earlier, so I run to wash up.

So as soon as my burger comes through the end of the grill, it is taken over to the "Tech Station" for final preparation..
They add the lettuce, and other stuff, get it ready to go. Do you want fries with that?

I am in the restroom, so Stella decides to change my order.  I actually do need to eat healthier..
She yells out to the cook to make a change,  "just make it a Bacon - Lettuce - Tomato sandwich with cheese".
The sandwich is unwrapped, changed, then reassembled and placed in the out tray.

I come out and unwrap my sandwich and take a bite.
Just like my Burger, the car is only finished, when it is ready for public consumption.

Only at the point when it is available for someone OTHER then a employee to use it..
At any point before that - it is still a test car, a mock up, or an experimental vehicle.
It is just insane to think that I can hold up my sandwich and say "check out my wonderful Double Cheeseburger"
A lot of the test cars were crushed, and I would bet they threw away my patties.
At any point they could have scrapped the entire project, instead they changed the drivetrain to L35.
and that is how the car was finished and made available as a finished product.

We worship these old cars now, but to GM it was just a product that they sold to the public.
And it is only what it is, at the time it was done being produced by the manufacturer - Chevrolet. Norwood or wherever.

That car was delivered and the final product was a L35 - no question in my mind - NONE
If there had been a problem replacing any component - Chevrolet would have moved to the next vehicle,
 and started over. I am really sorry CL that your car does not have it's original Engine - or does it?
You can't have it both ways - either it left production as a L78, or it didn't.

If CL still thinks that his car is still  a L78... I have only one question -- WHERE'S THE BEEF?


On a side note the #3 car will be ready in about 6-8 weeks.
It has been treated to a "no expense spared" complete (SUPER EXPENSIVE)  restoration.

The owner walked up to me at a car show back in like 96 or something 
and said: "I just bought one just like that"  (like everyone else always say's)
 Only this time I had actually seen the ad in the local little magazine - Car turned out to be a 1 of 1 - L78  0-1 67 Pacecar. 

It has taken this long to finish, and it will likely be the finest IPC in the country,  (Not for sale)
It has been finished by one of (or THE) top Camaro restorers in the world.

He can't wait to take both of  our 67 Pace cars and put them on display somewhere. sounds like a plan, but...
I am a little worried, that my original type car (not much restoration) will look like an old step-sister compared. 

Excuse me sir... Can I have an L78 with my L78.  LOL  


I am not doing this tonight.  
My wife say's i talk to the Charley guy more then i talk to her. 
We are going out to a nice dinner, and a first run movie this evening.