67 Pace cars

[Charley]

[Content removed by Rich...]

Jeff says the 2 Pace cars did not leave the factory with L78's so they are not L78's. They were built as L78's and I have the GM work order calling for them to be built as L78's. The work order then called for them to be deliverd to Chevrolet's engineering department. Then it calls for them to change the powertrain combination from "as delivered status" to RPO L35-M40.
  The above GM statement should settle any outlandish debate as to how they were delivered. They were delivered as L78-4 speeds. That was the "as delivered status". It was delivered to the engineering department as a L78.  The protecto-plate for my Pace car is for a L78 4 speed. Where Jeff tries to draw the line as to what the car was built as is simply to try to lessen what the car is because he has a problem with me. He also states there were 20 L78 Camaro's built before the Pace cars. Really ? Is there any fact to this or is he just making stuff up ? Does CRG have any info on these 20 L78 Camaro's built before the Pace cars ? If anyone thinks Jeff has made his posts because he really believes they were not L78 cars I would sure like to hear it.
 In regards to the discussion as to Grumpys car being the first L78 I will still assume the Pace cars were first based on the build date on the trim tags being a week earlier and the vins being about 2400 cars earlier.
  It would be nice to hear the CRG opinion or other members opinions.

[festival]

Here are the Documents.  I have looked these over myself in the early 1990's  Ligit all day long.

Page #1 Here: http://www.camaropacecars.com/1967/Engineering%20%20file.jpg

Page #2 Here:   http://www.camaropacecars.com/1967/Engineering%20file2.jpg

Phil

[Pacecarjeff]

The only L78 Pace car to go around the track in 1967 was the #3 car.  PERIOD
Many years ago when Dan Young discovered that the #3 car had been found still intact….
That is the time he decided to sell his – Now CL you have it.  A magnificent car for sure

However your car does not have a L78 in it - maybe it never did? 
Maybe it was delivered to the tech center with NO drivetrain?
Or, maybe the body was made, and held up till Grumpy’s cars were track tested?
We all must assume that GM didn’t just drop a L78 into a Camaro body,
and send the first one to Indy to be a public spectacle – no they tested it over and over.

GM wanted that car to be a L35 - so that is what they made it into - case closed.
If GM wanted it to be a deli delivery car - it would have left with a baloney sandwich in the glove box.
The car was converted – not in a good way (in your opinion), but converted nonetheless - apparently for drivability.

We call those Shelby Mustangs “Shelbys” not Mustangs...
Because they they were converted. The Newer Camaros are not called Z/28’s that were converted to SS’-
They are called what the factory intended them to be. Factory SS Camaros.

Your track car has an automatic transmission, soft-lifter heads, and a cast Iron intake. Not an L78 as is described in all the production data.
The L78 is an engine option – nothing more – so without the engine, what do you have?

I have a question for you:
Do you really think it should be an L78?  If so you better find a dated example to replace
the L35 that was installed by the FACTORY.  We all know how you want your cars to be exactly correct right

Is that car a historical benchmark -absolutely, but it is not an L78.

[Content removed by Rich...]

I am just presenting my opinion as I truly believe.

You have an amazing car - but the first L78 Camaro - get real. LOL

[Steve Shauger]

Lets stick to the facts as presented by Charley and Phil. There is absolutely no question that this car had an L78 drivetrain installed by the factory assembly line and delivered as such to GM Engineering. Facts are indisputable when backed up by original engineering documentation, and a protecto plate as proof it was built and delivered as such. Opinions, well everyone may have one, but in this case they are not necessary as the documents speak volumes.

[Charley]

Per Al Young...Vince Piggins told him a 3rd Pace car was never built. You may have found a L78 Pace car but not one that was prepped to pace the race.

  "Many years ago when Dan Young discovered that the #3 car had been found still intact….
That is the time he decided to sell his "
   That is just silly and just posted to tell tall tales. When I met Al Young they had sold the dealership and Dan had retired to Florida. Al was storing the car and they no longer needed it. Your audacity to tell a lie that Dan Young decided to sell the Pace car because a 3rd Pace car had been found should be offensive to everyone. Do you think that if a backup Pace car had been found it has any effect on the car that actually paced the race ? There are many pics of the Dan Young car pacing the race. There are none of your mystical car pacing the race so why would that make Dan Young  want to sell his car ? GM engineering converted the car into the L35, not the assembly line. The assembly line built it and shipped it with a L78.

  "Maybe it was delivered with no drivetrain ? " Does anyone reading this thread that has seen the paperwork really believe this statement is anything more than someone trying to spread mis-information ?

[Response to other removed content removed by Rich...]

[Pacecarjeff]

What about my facts?
Nice to have so many new members coming over fron sYc to discuss this.
You are exactly right. In this case the paperwork speaks volumes.
The only L78 Engine driving around the track at the 1967 Indy 500 was the #3 car.

By the time that #1 car left GM for road use, the L78 was removed and replaced with a L35 T400.
Chevrolet NEVER intended for that car to be a L78. NEVER.

So if Chevrolet didn't want it to be a L78, why do you think it should be?
The first and only Real 4K pacecar is the #3 car Period.

Do you happen to have a picture of the trim tag from the #1 car?

[Pacecarjeff]

Your facts regarding the #3 car are wrong.  Talk to the guy writing the book .
I would never try to devalue your car.
The engine means nothing.
even if it had a 4 cylinder Buick engine in it  - it Paced the race.
You should be proud.  I would be

Dan Young was down here in Florida when the #3 car was discovered. He knows all about it
Pretty stupid to think I would make that up.

[festival]

Jeff,

What #3 car are you talking about.  IMS Photos place IMS numbered car #92 as the pace car for both restarts.  The Back up car was IMS #90.

Please clairify.

Thanks

Phil

[festival]

Are you talking about the L-78 Mule that was tested at IMS and returned to Chevrolet?  That car was not delivered to the speedway for pace duty.  Is that the one you are talking about?    If so even by Fisher Body build# IMS #92 is still the eariler body build up.

Phil

[Charley]

    "Chevrolet NEVER intended for that car to be a L78. NEVER."

   Read the above posted GM documents. They called out for it in the GM work order for it to be built as a L78 car and it was. Just because the work order then calls for it to be converted  to a L35 it still started out and was built as a L78.

  "The first and only Real 4K pacecar is the #3 car Period"  My car is a 4P car as is Grumpys car. Now are yoiu going to say Grumpys car is not a L78 because it has a 4P trim tag like my car ? I have no facts concerning a 3rd Pace car and never stated I did. A L78  Pace car driving around the track has nothing to do with my car and the # 2 car being built as L78's.

[Pacecarjeff]

No this car did not pace the race.
Not sure what that car was called.

This was the only "actual" L78 camaro at the 500 race.

For some reason the car was not converted.
Not saying it was first, just that it was "only' - it had a later build date.

No -- Gruppy's car had an L78 installed when it hit the street.
Those 2 Track cars did not.

If Chevrolet wanted L78 cars to pace the race- that is what they would heve built.
They changed their mind and converted them before delivery.

You can't have it both ways - you have to decide.
If you want a L78 -- nstall an L78 engine.
If you want to keep it ORIGINAL -- keep your L35 T400

[KurtS]

OK, second warning for both parties.
Take out the personal comments. I don't really care what has occurred in the past on other sites.

This needs to remain a factual discussion, please park your baggage at the door.

[Charley]

They did not change their mind. It was all called out in the above posted work order. It is obvious from the paperwork  they ever intended for a L78 to Pace the race. The same paperwork calls for them to be built as L78 cars and they were. They were then converted to L35. No documents have surfaced that I know of that ever say they intended for  the Pace car to be a L78. Nothing that was at the track has anything to do with how the two actual Pace cars were built when they left the assembly line as L78's. The supposed # 3 Pace car having a L78 and a 4K trim tag would indicate to me that it was never intended to be a backup Pace car.

[KurtS]

Here's what I see:
#92 (Charley's car) and #90 were ordered as L78 cars. Norwood built them as such (#92's POP confirms that). After they were built, it would appear that Chevrolet decided the pacers should be an automatic. The work order is dated after the cars were built and well after the order was in the system. There was no automatic that could live behind an L78 in 67, so the two pacers were detuned to a L35/auto combination.

There was a pacer that at the event that was a 4K L78. This is an 04D car and is the car that Jeff is referring to. So far, it's the only IPC that's been found that has been a 4K car. Since it was a regular car (regular here meaning it was not one of the pacers) that Chevrolet provided to support the race, it would have been at the race in its factory configuration.

What did I leave out?

[Pacecarjeff]

That sounds exactly right. 

There was only 1 L78 Pace car at the race.