A First Generation Camaro LEGACY ?

[69Z28-RS]

If you want to get the CRG owners/admins on your side, you need to figure out a nice clean way to make it 'complementary' to CRG and it's data, and not an alternative..  I doubt that anyone 'opposes' what you would like to do, but then a lot of us have 'seen a lot' in our years, and while maybe we aren't skeptical, about some things we are 'skeptics' until we see more information and plans.  Talk to Kurt and other CRG members and find out what they think; if they think such a database would/could be complementary to what CRG is already doing.   If you work at it... you'll find a way...

[BULLITT65]

I agree. I am not sure how much info they would let on that they would be able to provide. But Ideally getting major players that have gobs of information dating back a ways would really make a difference in the percentage of information, and the depth of the info.

[KurtS]

I have been doing this for almost 20 years. Almost every Camaro registry that I have seen started has then died - JL8, L89, 68Z, etc. It takes a lot of continual work. And if you spread it amongst people, they need to be entering data in the same format - that's not a trivial problem. And the data stream is huge - just capturing the data from ebay is like drinking from a fire hose.

A registry will never address the issue that people buy cars and then ask questions later.

[ZLP955]

I've been following this with interest, but have held off replying until now.
A couple of thoughts:

- The intent of such a database is presumably to prevent fraud/misrepresentation for financial gain, but if a car was cloned 30 years ago, the deception has already happened. Some owners of such cars may be willing to provide details that would confirm them as fakes to prevent furthering that deception, but many wouldn't (or would not accept it in the face of facts).
- A database for the benefit of the hobby and for collectors should surely include all models and all 3 model years, not just what some of us consider the most desirable? Most hobby forums have members who are knowledgable about certain models and years, but to cover everything accurately is hugely problematic.
- As evidenced by this and other sites, even fully-documented cars aren't bullet-proof. GM of Canada docs for a valid VIN can be cloned onto another car (rebody), or faked altogether - not all buyers verify first, notarized statements from original owners should be treated with caution, and the rise in faked P-o-Ps, dealer invoices, MSOs etc is huge.
- Plenty of these cars reside in foreign countries (like my own) and it's impossible to get these inspected in person. What would likely happen is the database would be divided up into tiers - believed genuine, maybe (with some questionable items), believed non-genuine. This 'status' if made available to the general masses would impact on a car's perceived value and that will be an issue for some (many?) owners. Legal liability issues?
- The only way I could see such a database being as accurate as possible would be if the same expert physically inspected each car - a mammoth undertaking, and who would foot the bill or have the time/resources?
- With no disrespect intended, I have seen cars appraised and certified as such-and-such a desirable RPO on the basis of number of fuel lines, heater box style, firewall penetrations etc when there is zero documentation or any drivetrain component remaining - basically a rolling shell. I don't doubt the credibility and knowledge of those doing the certification, but my point is that without an inspection, what is there to go on from photos and descriptions to populate a database that is seen as credible?

[69Z28-RS]

I agree that all models should be accommodated, knowing that less desirable models will more than likely be less populated with less data.

30 to 40+ yrs ago, the 'fake Z28s'  99% consisted of adding badges to a Camaro; there may have been some 'better' fakes back then, but I never came across one.  I'm sure today the 'fakes are much better prepared (partly due to our gathering the necessary data for them).

All such a data base could do would be accumulate/gather the data as provided by the owners with notations as to what is *missing* or questionable.  Having a single person/organization inspect all the cars is impossible, although certainly having data from a viable inspection would be good data to have for the cars that had it.

Maybe a more feasible suggestion for Austin and others who desire to promote such a database would be to coordinate with CRG and volunteer to collect and provide the data collected into the CRG database..

[bcmiller]

Great idea Gary. People are always encouraged to forward data to the CRG core or CRG Associate members.

Austin, What you are asking for is truly “Pie in the Sky”. Unless you have unlimited time and money, it will never happen. Experts have different levels of knowledge. Who would constantly update it? The problems are MANY as Kurt mentioned.

[BULLITT65]

Tim those are good suggestions, about a cars history and if has had a certified inspection, or if it was "uncertified" in the history of the car would also be good to know.
 I guess my question with the CRG is if a potential buyer asks about a car that has been inspected by Jerry, and IFKurt happens to see the post, is the CRG (Kurt) privy to Jerry's data base?

I have seen cars mentioned in the past, where Kurt says he doesn't have any info on the car. Does that mean it hasn't been seen by Jerry either?

Also for the MCACN first gen Camaros that get inspected, has this data been combined with CRG data, or are these also separate?

[KurtS]

All three are separate.

[BULLITT65]

Would it be a good idea to have a collective data base of all three? Kurt if you had the final say, how would you envision the best way to compile all the data?
Would you want it all under the CRG roof? Or is even that to monumental? (I am not sure how many cars Jerry has inspected/documented)
Would Jerry's data be to large, to take on merging it with Your CRG data (not sure if all of Jerry's data is on a computer)

(Be nice to hear from Steve S. And his take on this as well)

[KurtS]

> And if you spread it amongst people, they need to be entering data in the same format - that's not a trivial problem.
None of the data is even close to the same format, if it's even digitized.
Order of magnitudes difference. The CRG database is 20,000+ cars, some with lots of info, some with basic info. Steve's and Jerry's data is way fewer cars, more details.

From the start, CRG has committed that any data submitted will remain confidential.  See http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0

[BULLITT65]

So then how would you would imagine a ideal registry at this point with your knowledge of the CRG data base, and a smaller sample of cars from Jerry and Steve?
We can all continue to funnel potential buyers through the CRG, but you are just one guy. Just like Jerry is one guy.
If you have something personal come up, and say you are out attending to it for 2 weeks, That data on 20,000 cars is pretty much locked up, until you get back then right?
I guess I am somewhat wondering where you see this going as time marches on?  Do you envision what you do evolving into more or a grander scale?

[maroman]

I don't have a nickle in this but have been wondering something. I don't know Jerry, never met him but I think he does his evaluations as a business. He looks at cars for the current owner's benefit. Why would he volunteer to give up his data base for all to see? Wouldn't that be a conflict?

[BULLITT65]

I agree Doug, thats why I thought for example: if a potential buyer submitted a vin to say Kurt, and he had a list of Vin numbers that Jerry has inspected, he could then let the potential buyer know it is on file with Jerry, and possibly pay for a copy of that old report? 
Now maybe Jerry is unable to release the report, or maybe he destroys them after a number of years?
But, if he can get permission, or if the person who paid for the report isn't in the picture, maybe he could come up with a 2nd tier fee schedule for old reports?
So if he charges $800 for a new report, maybe he charges $200 for a copy of an old report? (maybe prorated based on age)

This is all speculation, but there would be a way for him to protect his business financially.

I am just not sure about who owns the info in those reports and their rights to keep it private.

[69Z28-RS]

The data produced by the report Jerry produces is *owned* by the person who contracted him to do it (normally the owner of the car), UNLESS Jerry has some clause in his 'contract' with them that states that 'Jerry now owns the contents of the report on the owners car'.   ie.  If you contract with someone to do a service for you, providing acess to/information from something you own, ownership of that information does NOT pass to the service provider.   Without requesting/receiving right to pass along that data from the owner, Jerry could not provide you all his data even if he wanted to do that.

Austin:  IMO... You're getting TOO far reaching with your aspirations.   Any information provided to you should come from the owner(s) of the vehicles, and once that was provided, you or some expert could 'assess' that information.   Back up a bit, go back to your original goal statement..  to develop a *limited* data base to serve as a 'First Gen' Camaro Registry.  it's always going to be limited to data on the cars submitted to you by their owners.   It's going to be limited due to a number of reasons:  1) How many HUNDREDS of thousands of first gen Camaros were built??  2)  It's been more than 50 yrs since they were produced and many are GONE, or trashed..  3) Many owners just consider them 'old cars' and couldn't care about your 'registry'.   We who are on CRG (and maybe Team Camaro) are the MOST interested re Camaros.. and compare our numbers to those total numbers of cars to get what I'm trying to say.   1967 Z28s are probably the only model/yr that had a small enough quantity to *maybe* generate a decent registry, and even that is nearly impossible to ever get a full listing.

[BULLITT65]

Good point. So what your saying is all of Jerry's inspections if not kept by the seller, once they disappear are gone forever.

Well I have a leg up on the 08 (late 69 ) Camaros, It would be nice to get a few other guys to head up other months of the year, to keep this going.