This time it's seat back panels I am looking for recommendations for.

[sdkar]

Hey guys,

Well here I am again, looking for yet another recommendation in the wonderful world of reproduction parts.  I have a 69 Pace Car, and the hugger orange seat backs are looking bad.  Not just faded, as some spray dye could remedy that, but they are dry rotting.  The plastic is "burned" for lack of a better word, and the scratches I have are deep.  The plastic flakes when anything but a light touch strikes it. 

Anyway, I bought a pair about 15 years ago when I was restoring the car, and they were HORRIBLE.  The orange color was way off, and was almost a light orange as opposed the beautiful hugger orange we all love.  But the color was the least of my complaints.  The shape was not even close.  The curves were not right, and where the cover is supposed to turn in and meet the seat at the top, it looked bad.  Can't explain it fully, but anyone who has aftermarket panels from this time frame, knows they just plain sucked. 

Have the panels for sale today gotten better?  How do they compare to original?  Is the color right?  Is the contours and curves close?

If you have an opinion on the latest offerings, please let me know...good or bad.

Thanks.

[77thor]

Hmmm... I've been wondering how good they are too. But I need black ones.

Looking forward to some responses.

[169INDY]

X2

I ordered replacement seat back panels for my pace car, they spray painted the orange on top of a off white plastic back, any little touch scratches the orange paint exposing the base off white plastic. They seem to fit OK, but the grain is noticeably different than original.

I would also like to see the Latest offering available.

[sdkar]

The orange ones I got 15 years ago, were at least solid thru orange plastic.  Yeah, they still looked and fit like crap, but they were not white with orange paint.  I am still in awe over the fact that here we are 50 years later, with all of our technological advancements in manufacturing, plastics, computers, and so on, and we can not come even close to the the quality of 50 year old parts.  I just don't get. 

[69Z28-RS]

I think a *real company* COULD come close, and exceed the 45 yr old plastics technology, IF enough customers wanted to pay the price...  Unfortunately spending that kind of money is a big risk (too big) for a real company, so we get the fly-by-night no-engineering companies making cheap parts in Japan selling *repro* parts...  In these cases, we really do get "what we pay for"...  or more accurately ..  'we don't get what we don't pay for'..

Chevrolet developed those parts expecting/knowing they were going to sell a quarter million or so cars per year...  That provides a basis for spending the $$...

[sdkar]

To follow up on the above.  GM didn't really make all the parts they used to build their cars...they bought them from suppliers.  One company who probably made the steering wheels and other dash goodies, one for the seatbelts, one for the seat backs, seat frames, trunk mats, and on and on and on.  What happened to those companies?  What happened to those molds and dies?  And did, say the seat backs, really cost all that much back then?  Today, a reproduction pair costs $99.  In 69, you could buy the entire car for about $2500.  So, 25 pairs of seat backs today equals one complete brand new 69 Camaro 50 years ago.  What was $99 worth then?  A base Camaro today is about ten times the cost of a base Camaro in 69.  Does that mean that seat backs cost $10 then?  I doubt GM paid $10 for just the plastic seat backs. Hell, I bet at most, they paid a buck or two for them...and that was sold at a profit to GM...not a large profit, but a profit still. 

So, how can we not duplicate this process again?  What was done then that is not done today?  If they are making molds to product these plastic pieces, then surely it cost the same money to make a mold that is spot on as it is to make a mold that is not even close.  Is it that hard to make a correctly formed mold?  Is it that much more expensive? 

I am not so sure it is the market, as all of us here are willing to pay more for a part that is correct.  Hell, rosewood steering wheels are selling for $1,500 because reproductions suck.  This amount of money for a part that cost GM $5 to make in 1969.  So, what gives.  If someone, no matter where, Taiwan, China, or USA are going to make parts for our cars, can they NOT go the extra yard to product a perfect part.  Is the wood grain that hard to match?  Is the shape of a panel that difficult to get the right measurements.  These manufacturers are not starting from scratch like GM did, they have the items already made to match up with.  The money is there...the quality is not.  Maybe the sales of reproduction parts are as low as they are is because of quality is terrible.  I bet whoever makes seat backs, would sell ten times more if they were correct...and that is at double the price they are selling them for now.  If you tool a part, make it right.  It takes the same amount of work to make the patterns, the molds, the dyes, the stamps, or whatever is used to mass produce, so, be exact.  In 69, they used slide rules to make the machines that made our cars.  Today, we have computers with lasers that can measure to the millionth of an inch, but we can't beat 50 year old tech. 

I have money, I have the desire to purchase, what I don't have is the correct item for sale.

[69Z28-RS]

I think you missed the point I was trying to make...   with manufacturing, the ENTIRE thing is about VOLUME...  If you committed to purchase 250,000 pairs of seatbacks, there is no doubt in my mind that the per piece price would be MUCH less than you are paying for the reproductions AND the quality would be 10X higher.

What happened to the suppliers from back then?   They continued to supply parts to the major manufacturers, or they got bought up by other companies, and they are likely still doing the things the major car companies require...    Or the required technologies changes, those companies went out of business, and other (new) companies took their place.

Since 1969, $cost of goods has probably changed at least 20X.... What has your salary done since 1969?     

[Mike S]

My salary in '69 was $5 week allowance 

Mike

[jdv69z]

There is a thread somewhere here in which John Z explained why the sheet metal parts couldn't be manufactured to GM's 69 parts. He talked about a 6 press set up which would cost about $80 million dollars, today, IIRC. And I don't think that included the cost of the dies? The only way that kind of investment is feasible is if you are making hundreds of thousands of parts. So the same parts could be made today to the same quality, but the question is, at what price?

[69Z28-RS]

There is a thread somewhere here in which John Z explained why the sheet metal parts couldn't be manufactured to GM's 69 parts. He talked about a 6 press set up which would cost about $80 million dollars, today, IIRC. And I don't think that included the cost of the dies? The only way that kind of investment is feasible is if you are making hundreds of thousands of parts. So the same parts could be made today to the same quality, but the question is, at what price?

...  it would depend on volume...  The initial costs, called sunk costs, have to amortized over MANY piece parts to get the price per unit down.  'Many' is millions or at least hundreds of thousands...

[sdkar]

Here is an auction for seat backs in black. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/231822884139?ul_noapp=true

I asked them if they had these in hugger orange, and they responded with the following:

Thank you for choosing CARiD on eBay.

Kindly provide me with the year, make, model, submodel of your vehicle to check on a different color option for you.

If you have any additional questions, please feel free to reach out to us as we are here for your satisfaction before and after your purchase.

Sincerely,
Amalia Volls
Customer Experience Center


My response:  REALLY?  They need all of this info to know if they sell these in orange.  I can only guess these people are not in America, or have no clue what a car even is.  Is it me, or am I the only ones that despise certain people and/or companies when they ask you for all of this info?  The listed these, but have no clue if they have them in any other color?  SERIOUSLY? 

I find this even more frustrating when I need parts that are not vehicle specific.  Not long ago, I went to NAPA and asked for a set of plugs for a GM 502 engine.  The guy asked what the year, make and model it was for.   I explained it had nothing to do with the engine as if was a crate engine.  He then asked what year make and model the engine came from, to which I asked him if he understood what "crate engine" meant.  He had no clue.  He told me he had to have this info to find out if he had whatever it was in stock.  I told him that it would probably be an AC Delco rapidfire 4 plug, and he still could not tell me if he had them.  He stated that he needed his computer to tell him what was in stock and where to look for that item.  I told him couldn't he just go in the back and look at this spark plugs under AC Delco and look for #4 rapidfire?  His response was "NOPE".  OMG.  How do these people get jobs here.  Hey, I get that Advance Auto Parts and Autozone hire morons and very seldom do you have anyone that knows a damn thing about cars, but NAPA...I expected better.  This guy was helpless unless his computer could tell him what to think.  I left and have never been back.  I now find myself ordering 99.9% of my stuff online now...even stuff like oil, filters, and plugs.  It's no longer worth it.  The purpose of these places was supposed to be the human factor, someone to assist you.  Well that is gone.  You now MUST know what you want and tell them specifically, or you will not get what you need.

Now, to get back to where I was.  Why the heck does this company NOT know if they carry this item in another color?  I am betting for the same reason as what happened at NAPA.  They need a computer to tell them.  They need a computer to tell them when to go to the bathroom too I bet. 

Anyway, a decent deal for this price if you need them in black......provided they are decent reproductions.  It's say satisfaction guaranteed or your money back.  No cost to you if they suck and you have to return them.  If anyone gets a set from this seller, post and let us know if they are any good.

[Mike S]

 I've dealt with CARiD a few times before. I suspect they are just a web based type of clearing house operation that deals with many different products.

Mike

[abiddle]

PM me if you are looking for original seatbacks, I have an email for you. Or better yet, PM Mosportgreen66 on the Yenko forum if you are over there.