Identifying 3961398 Oil Pan, 1969 302 Production line?

[Bryan302]

In doing a little research on 302 oil pans, I came across the part # 3961398 in the Feb. 1969 P&A catalog.  This is on pg. 1-38 in revision dated 2-15-69.  This oil pan was listed for 1967-69 302 engines. 

It is also known that 67-69 302's had their own distinct oil pan, according to Jerry M. and other facts.

I also found where the progression was believed to be as follows, 1968 302 3927134; 1969 302 3961398; 1969 302 3974251; and into replacements 360009, 465220, 360450.

The controversy I saw and had questions about were the listing in the P&A catalog for 3961398, dated February of 1969 and the post that Steve (Z28Z11) made in the thread below with his NOS pan 3974251, dated 2-14-69

http://www.camaros.org/forum/index.php?topic=10201.msg76264#msg76264
Identifing 68 Z28 oil pan, post #5.

With all this said, my question is:

Is this 3961398 pan the original Assembly line 1969 302 oil pan?

Was 3961398 short lived and quickly replaced by 3974251?

Thanks,
Bryan

[cook_dw]

110 views and no one has any info or comments??  Geezzzz...

[BSMIT59]

Well Cook, these are rare as HEN'S teeth and nobody wants to give up any info that they might have an extra one cause guys like me that ARE LOOKING FOR ONE, will probably bug them from here to never more to try and get it !!!  Just kidding, but if there is one laying around out there..........PM me please.

[69Z28-RS]

...  and... to my knowledge, oil pans do not have pns on them, so identifying one by a PN requires more knowledge than just looking at one pan...?   My original (Sept '69) 302 oil pan is off my car and I could photograph it or relate to an ID component if it helped...  otherwise, I have insufficient knowledge to assist in the query...

I suspect very few people on CRG actually have enough information to help Bryan in his research, and it seems as if he has access to a '69 dated Accessory and Parts Manual??

[Bryan302]

When I saw that the P&A listed pn #3961398 as the 302 pan in the Feb. '69 time frame, I remembered Steve's NOS example of 3974251 being dated Feb. 1969 also.   This could be a time of change between the two, or they used both at the same time, etc.  I was hoping someone would have an NOS example of 3961398 or other parts catalogs such as Mitchell Manuals, etc. to have another listing of this pan.  GM didn't just stick this PN# in the manual, there has got to be something to this pan's existence.  It might just be the early to mid production line pan!! ??  It might not!  Let's see what can be found?

Bryan

[lynnbilodeau]

Here you go Bryan.  At least some info.  Can't help with PN.

  http://www.camaros.net/forums/34-restoration-corner/178450-nos-vs-original-z-28-oil-pans.html

I have seen no REAL assembly line Z/28 oil pans on ebay in a while.  I see MANY of the "NOS" pans that were still available for $90 from Scoggin Dickey up until just a few years ago.

I have two assembly line pans here.   I will look for date codes, but don't remember seeing one on a pan.  Have one that needs cleaned, so maybe I can look tomorrow.

[Bryan302]

Thanks Lynn, That is a very good comparison between the original and service replacements.  That is a good reference showing the measurement for the thin or thick front seal.

One thing that I would like to bring up, but not to bring 67-68's in this.  I saw in the 68 Z28 oil pan thread, post #10 (link in my first post above) that Jerry (1968 Z28) mentioned that he found in the 1969 parts manual that the 1969 pan was 3974251, vs. the P&A catalog stating it was 3961398.  The 1969 parts manual also stated the pn# 3927134 was for BOTH 1967 and 1968 302.  It has been determined by original survivor cars and known experts that 67 and 68 302 oil pans are definitely different!

I have always heard that GM did not change the part number unless the part actually changed in some form or fashion.  So, If 67 and 68 302 pans are different, why or how are they the same part number?  I suspect the same thing is going on with 69 with these two part numbers being listed for the 1969 302, 3974251 and 3961398.

I do realize that the only answer is going to come from an NOS example, or a close study among all part numbers and parts books.  At least, I would like to find out if there were actually two production line 1969 302 oil pans, or a parts book FUBAR!

Bryan

[z28z11]

By the time the pans hit the parts counters, the 3974251 pans might have been the only NOS part number available at that time, as the date on my installation instruction notes - 2/69. Pretty early in the production to change the part number, so finding one of the NOS 3961398 pans might be nigh unto impossible.

I've got three pans - my original production line pan, the 251 pan, and a 465220 I bought for the MO assembly I did for the '68. The 465220 pan has a very narrow front seal lip, different radius, too - I need to revisit the old threads concerning FelPro one piece seals and rebutton this one before it goes into the car. Hate leaking anything, especially oil pan gaskets.

Steve

[Bryan302]

Thanks Steve,

Just curious, but have you ever compared your production line pan against your NOS 251 pan?  Are there any differences at all?

Thanks,
Bryan