Author Topic: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?  (Read 16503 times)

jeremywrags

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Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« on: February 18, 2015, 12:12:50 AM »
Hi All,

I just bought a 1969 "Z28" and although I have inspected all the numbers I am still not 100% sure it's the real deal, I want to believe it is but am skeptical.

VIN: 124379L515559
Engine Pad: V1230DZ
Engine Casting: 3956618
Engine Date: L188
Carb: 3923289-DZ
Trans: VIN & Date Stamps Match
Rear End: Dates Line up

Can anyone tell me if they are familiar with this car?

thanks
« Last Edit: February 18, 2015, 01:05:11 AM by jeremywrags »

jeremywrags

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2015, 12:23:59 AM »
Got a better picture of the Engine Stamp

1968RSZ28

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2015, 02:25:30 AM »

ko-lek-tor

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2015, 04:28:42 AM »
According to what is posted on Camaros.net, you satisfied yourself in your own verification. My advice would be to contact the insurance company on the title and see if you can find out why it was salvaged. That is what I would do. It could have been stolen, it could of had a boulder fall on it, or cut in half by a train, or been in a blazing fire. Who knows, at this point? That would start to unravel the clues as to the car's history. Back in the day, I got a '72 Z parts car (for nothing). Upon further inspection, it was all Z from the dash forward, but the whole back half was grafted on with clearly all brazing at the top of the windshield pillars and across the floor, just behind the hinge pillar. I always say, if it can be done, it probably has, and I've seen it all. It may be a real Z or at least part of it and it may have a stigma that will always haunt it, as well.
Bentley to friends :1969 SS/RS 396 owned 79
1969 SS 350 (sold)
1969 D.H.COPO replica 4spd. owned since 85
1967 302 4 spd 5.13

jeremywrags

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2015, 03:55:18 PM »
Hey Guys,

Thanks for the input so far. I am very aware of the salvage title, I posted that pic... I have inspected the vehicle very thoroughly and and satisfied that it was built correctly. There was an accident that the insurance company deemed beyond the value of the vehicle so it was totaled. I managed track down the insurance claim and the car was rear ended in 2012 after an expensive restoration. The owner provided receipts to the insurance who decided to total it and pay out the policy. From what I understand the damage was fairly minor but the PO was being unreasonable about the repairs. Anyway, I am cool with the salvage title, I am taking the car to OK where it will be branded rebuilt plus I bought it to keep and drive...

OK now on to the question I posted, The insurance paid out on this car as if it were a true matching numbers Z28, I posted the numbers and pics of the motor in this thread and what I am looking for is opinions on the Engine Pad Stamp, if it's real then I am certain the car is as well.

There are 2 things missing that make this car not 100% both of which I could see having been replaced over a 45 year span...
Carb is correct but a replacement
Master Cylinder is incorrect but the brake booster is right

bcmiller

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #5 on: February 18, 2015, 05:15:26 PM »
Kurt, what do you think?
Bryon / 1968 Camaro SS 396 coupe - now old school 468 big block
1967 Camaro RS/SS 396 coupe L35/M40 - 4 generation family project
Looking for 68 Camaro with body # NOR 181016

69Z28-RS

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #6 on: February 18, 2015, 06:48:18 PM »
The application stamp appears much closer to the head than original stamps that I've seen.   Whether that proximity was possible with the gang stamp holder they used... I'm unsure.  Maybe Kurt or JohnZ can say more certainly whether it's possible to be that close to the head, or not... and they likely have original stampings in that time period or with those characters to say whether they are consistent with original stamps or not.

Regardless of whether the engine is a 'real' one or not, and ignoring the bad date on the carburetor and incorrect master cylinder, you've already bought the car!   and you purchased it to enjoy/drive..  so do it... and if you are interesting in getting into the real details of 'originality', then do so..  but be aware that the more you find out is 'wrong' about your car, it might detract from your enjoyment!  I'd say just drive it and enjoy it... but don't misrepresent it.   As a lot of people say today.. 'IT IS WHAT IT IS!"..   :)

Gary
09C 69Z28-RS, 72 B 720 cowl console rosewood tint
69 Corvette, '60 Corvette, '72 Corvette
90 ZR1 red/red #246, 90 ZR1 white/gray #2466
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cook_dw

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #7 on: February 18, 2015, 07:39:00 PM »
Looks like a good stamp to me.. ??? But no expert here.

jeremywrags

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2015, 05:10:06 PM »
The application stamp appears much closer to the head than original stamps that I've seen.   Whether that proximity was possible with the gang stamp holder they used... I'm unsure.  Maybe Kurt or JohnZ can say more certainly whether it's possible to be that close to the head, or not... and they likely have original stampings in that time period or with those characters to say whether they are consistent with original stamps or not.

Regardless of whether the engine is a 'real' one or not, and ignoring the bad date on the carburetor and incorrect master cylinder, you've already bought the car!   and you purchased it to enjoy/drive..  so do it... and if you are interesting in getting into the real details of 'originality', then do so..  but be aware that the more you find out is 'wrong' about your car, it might detract from your enjoyment!  I'd say just drive it and enjoy it... but don't misrepresent it.   As a lot of people say today.. 'IT IS WHAT IT IS!"..   :)

Gary

I think the picture is a little deceiving due to the angle that I had to take it at... Looking on the car the stamp is pretty centered on the pad between the edge and the head. I hear you about digging to far, i want a real Z and if this one turns out to be a clone that will be a shame. Regardless it looks and drives like a Z so I am still very happy and I have no intention of restoring it to the point where I don't want to drive it so I will just enjoy it the way it is :-)

I appreciate the input from you guys and would still like some more opinions on the validity of the stamp, at this point it's the one thing that could validate this car as real or clone.

KurtS

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2015, 05:03:25 AM »
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but that's Memorex. :(
A good looking restamp, but not original.
Kurt S
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jeremywrags

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2015, 05:50:09 PM »
Hey Kurt,

Thanks for the feedback, this is disappointing for sure. I am new to this subject so forgive me for asking but are you 100% certain? Could the picture be deceiving? The PO has two independent appraisals that state this car is real... They could be full of it, just trying to cover my bases here. Also what is memorex, is that a method of restamping? I did a search but only came up with threads like "Is it real or memorex"

So now assuming you are correct how can I even tell what this motor is? It drives like a real 302 but I would hate to push it to 7K RPM and blow it because it's not a DZ... Is there any way to tell without disassembling it? My hope is that the VIN and Assembly stamp are fake and that this is a real DZ motor that was just restamped to fit this car.

Based on the condition of the car and the options I still think I got a great deal I just want to be sure what it is that I actually have.

thanks



janobyte

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 05:53:32 PM »
Memorex cassettes ??  copy? Maybe telling us your age  ;)
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

janobyte

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2015, 06:13:11 PM »
BTY ,don't rely on a rev test to prove it's a 302!  My 400 took 7800 shifts for years. But that was what it was built for.(block still alive and well) Barnfind 302 may be a little warmed over and it's best days past.

History of this car will fill some blanks. Head casting numbers/date codes...trans..rear end... crank (all of which could be found on this site) will revel what you have. May have been decked?

An engine builder's quote : " Very easy and cheap to make 500hp in a SBC...once! "
68 Z/28  born with: 302, drive line, etc..

BillOhio

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2015, 06:43:00 PM »
Jano that's a good one. Biggest thing on rpm might be what cams in it?
Transmission stamp might be interesting to see what it looks like
1969 Z28, Burgandy, numbers matching, 12,900 miles
1968 RS 327 4 speed
1970 Z28 M22 4:10 bought from original owner
1961 Chrysler 300G convertible

william

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Re: Early 69 Z28, Is it real?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2015, 08:28:06 PM »
Hey Kurt,

Thanks for the feedback, this is disappointing for sure. I am new to this subject so forgive me for asking but are you 100% certain? Could the picture be deceiving? The PO has two independent appraisals that state this car is real... They could be full of it, just trying to cover my bases here. Also what is memorex, is that a method of restamping? I did a search but only came up with threads like "Is it real or memorex"

So now assuming you are correct how can I even tell what this motor is? It drives like a real 302 but I would hate to push it to 7K RPM and blow it because it's not a DZ... Is there any way to tell without disassembling it? My hope is that the VIN and Assembly stamp are fake and that this is a real DZ motor that was just restamped to fit this car.

Based on the condition of the car and the options I still think I got a great deal I just want to be sure what it is that I actually have.

thanks




The CRG encourages intellectual debate on matters. Nothing wrong with having an opinion that differs from others as long as there are valid reasons for it. I'm not convinced yours is a re-stamp based on what I have seen.

There are valid reasons for believing the DZ stamp on your engine is not original, mainly that it does not happen to match another V1230DZ stamp. It has been long believed that all engines of a particular code built on the same day were stamped with the same stamper. Yours challenges that tenet.

Accomplishing a re-stamp would have required an virgin 618 block dated perfectly to your car. The individual would have had to know the different fonts involved and have access to them. It's a stretch to believe all that happened.

Virtually all re-stamps are performed on decked blocks. On occasion the original stamping is faintly visible. So when you get around to it, remove the alternator, wipe the pad with a cloth and some degreaser. Do not use anything abrasive. Take some more photos without the glare of the flash. If the block was in fact decked it's a re-stamp. If the factory broach marks are there, it is most likely real and we will have to re-visit our thinking on the matter.




« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 09:30:45 PM by william »
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