The straight skinny on post '65, pre-mid '70, Hurst shifter plating

[Shadow Ahead]

The more I delve into the matter of whether factory and aftermarket shifters made by Hurst in the indicated title period of this subject, the more muddy the waters become.

Literature, including page 52 ( but I do not currently own a copy) of Pete Serio's Volume 1, 'Vintage Hurst Shifters', an email to Pete Serio in which he restates what he said on page 52 of his book, and vintage '62 and '63 Hurst ads which state under features that all Hurst shifters and hardware ( obviously not the triple chrome shifter stick ) are cadmium plated.

So what is the deal? What actual testing proof or documents outside engineering documents which usually list heat treatments, fastener coatings, etc. but are wish lists from engineering(if those documents exist at all)exist? Company memos and service bulletins sent out to customers might list actual production facts such as cadmium or zinc and chromate hardware and shifter control boxes.

Outside the above, what, if any, testing has been done to determine original, factory coatings? If they have been done, are there documents, posts, photos, and so on attesting to the results found?
Thanks.

Steve Avery

[KurtS]

Specs on drawings are not wish lists, they are requirements.

Pete has done the most research. Else talk to someone that worked for Hurst back then.
And look at original parts - I've seen cad plating, but possibly other plating too.

[Shadow Ahead]

The problem is looking at parts is not proof.
I've contacted Pete. My personal experience has been unless it is aviation, aerospace, military, or crucial suspension, brake, or drivetrain components, specifications for materials and processes applied to hardware can change between the drawing and production.

I have some other contacts in mind, thanks for the idea!

Steve

[firstgenaddict]

You are making statements regarding specs in a 1962 advertisements for Hurst Shifters, yet asking questions about 65-69 Hurst supplied OEM shifters.
Apples to Oranges
GM's specs may or may not have been the exact specs for what Hurst supplied to the aftermarket.
Example elimination of the positive stops in the comp plus, the bayonette handle and rubber insulator were not used, nor were the rubber bushings in the shifter gates for the rods, these were done to accommodate the OEM's, not for performance.

[69Z28-RS]

and..  in addition to what James said..  if the GM drawing supplied to Hurst as a part of their PO/contract stated 'cad plating'.. then the parts would be rejected on receipt were they not cad plated.   Hurst would have latitude to change at will on their consumer parts.. but not on their contract parts to GM.

[Shadow Ahead]

Are there engineering sheets available from GM's historical services that back up what you gentlemen are saying?
I wouldn't be asking about what plating was either specified by manufacturers or aftermarket if there were readily available documents for the period of time indicated. There are precious few documents surviving that period when Hurst was in Pa.

If those specified documents exist they exist from the OEM's. Does Pete Serio provide hard data as to why concludes that all Hurst shifters from '60-'70? Individuals on various forums. Gravitate between ear zinc and silver cadmium. You can argue till the cows come home about what GM specified but I'm interested in hard data, and only hard data. Not what individuals say or write. I'm here because what people say, doesn't agree. What people have stated, as fact, thus far has no proof behind it. That is what I'm looking for. Not opinion, not argument, not declarative  statements, fact.

We're the shifters zinc of cad or were they specified as zinc or cad. Either situation works for me.

Thanks.

Steve

[firstgenaddict]

ok, correct me if I am wrong I think the actual question is are people being led to believe that zinc is correct because environmentally true cadmium plating is near impossible to have done, or is their documentation from the oem to back up the claims?

Which is a good question.

[Shadow Ahead]

^ Thank you. Yes,that is the simple question. I don't care if it's zinc or cad or some came that way and others were cad because Hurst sent the shifters out to have the plating done. I strongly suspect after talking to people and after others have done individual testing, that there is no absolute. There's the standard, and then there's the reality of having job shops do outside work for an aftermarket company.

Around '68 things changed rapidly at Hurst and unless they inspected the plating baths as the parts were getting done, how would they or GM or any other OEM customer know? Looking at it? Zinc with the right chromates can look almost exactly like silver cadmium. Destructive testing with acid to find out? Really?

It's really two questions: 1)What was the plating spec?
2) what has subsequent spot checking of original, unmolested items shown?

My interest is purely historical.

On the judging field for original and restored cars, who is going to a) check the shifter box and hardware?
b)and who is going to know, or care, what they are looking at?
c)If they are qualified experts, how would they ever discern beween silver cadmium and the various zinc processes that can look almost exactly the same?

So the last three questions are not a problem that needs addressing.

Steve

[Shadow Ahead]

You are making statements regarding specs in a 1962 advertisements for Hurst Shifters, yet asking questions about 65-69 Hurst supplied OEM shifters.
Apples to Oranges
GM's specs may or may not have been the exact specs for what Hurst supplied to the aftermarket.
Example elimination of the positive stops in the comp plus, the bayonette handle and rubber insulator were not used, nor were the rubber bushings in the shifter gates for the rods, these were done to accommodate the OEM's, not for performance.

I was establishing what I do know and what the company said about all their shifters in '62 and '63.

I thought Hurst established their first OEM relationship with Pontiac and that was in '61.

What Pontiac, and subsequent clients such as Oldsmobile, specified for the rods and linkage, is another story. I'm quite well acqianted with the floppy linkage on my '69 Z-28 in the seventies. I'm acquainted with less than perfect crispness on my '70 AMX with factory Hurst.

I get your point about the OEM's and entirely agree. Nevertheless leaving out shift arms and rods and rubber vs steel bushings, then the standard, at least through '63, as per their ads, was cadmium plated shifter box and hardware.

After that time, I have found no ads, no engineering papers from OEM's, and no proof that cadmium lit the way through mid-1970.

Steve

[KurtS]

Find proof that the rear axle was painted. I doubt you can, but it was.
My point is you have a high standard that very few could answer in the day, let alone now.

[firstgenaddict]

It may be easier to figure GM's specs by looking at shifters other than hurst. Since Hurst supplied both OEM and the after market looking at the GM built shifters or The Muncie shifter supplied in 67-68 may offer some glimpses as to specs. I would venture to guess that if Hurst's specs exceeded GM's specs, (corrosion, saltspray etc) it would be no problem to substitute better finishes. ex.  If GM required zinc for (X)hours corrosion protection and Cad offered (X+)hours if Cad were supplied it may have been a non issue.

[Shadow Ahead]

Does GM have a phone number for their historical archive service?
Thanks.

Steve

[KurtS]

James,
Then the print normally would allow either coating option. Or Engineering would issue a deviation to allow an alternate coating.

[JoeC]

I have been a Hurst shifter collector for many years and I know they went from silver cad to a black oxide color around 1970 -71 on the OEM shifters and about the same for some aftermarket shifters

on the aftermarket shifters, they would phase in some changes

for example the large Hurst letters vs the smaller letters or the welded stick vs the bolt on stick

for a the early Mustang and the 55-57 Chevy, Hurst kept selling the older version shifter with large letters and the welded on chrome stick
after some models were using the bolt on chrome stick

The 1967 and 1968 Camaro had 3 different Hurst aftermarket shifters
the original early 67 68 Camaro Hurst aftermarket shifter and chrome stick was only used a short time then was redesigned


 

[KurtS]

Joe,
What changed on the 67-8  aftermarket shifter?