COST OF BUYING CARS WITH OR WITHOUT RUST

[VINCE Z28]

We've all been faced with trying to buy a car at a good price, but what are the costs when rusted out quarter panels and floors are what we have to deal with. What is the price difference? how much less do we offer for the rusted car over the rust free cars? Is there a hard an fast rule % wise? At a shop I know it's time and money an shops charge different rates, but when your standing there looking at the car.... what is going through your mind, quarter panel, minus $3000, floor minus $ 3500. To make an offer or walk away? I know when we can do the work our selves it's mostly about the money, our time is worthless unless we sell the car for a profit .

[lakeholme]

First, do your research! Then, figure out how much you want to put into it!  Stick to it....
And for the unskilled the best rule is buy it already restored... Most cars (outside of a really good deal or a really rare car with an inflated price) cost more to restore than buy outright.  But that's not your question...
On the whole my rule of thumb is I don't want to have to do more than a 40% restoration overall.
The frame and the drivetrain are the "bones and heart" of a car.  If they look bad, walk away. Unless you just happen to have a drivetrain in your garage that you are dying to put into something, but that means a low ball offer.
And then, yes, start adding up the body and interior parts and subtract that from the buying price if it is over priced according to your research.
I've got a buddy who takes half the price of needed parts and adds that in for his time.  He clearly states his "deductions" describing the work needed.  Most of the time he does get the car for his price... and he buys several each year.  And he describes the cars he didn't get as "Well, I've been laughed at before...."
Unless you have access to a paint booth or want a rat rod, you need to know paint prices  I know that's not a part of the negotiating on a rusty car, but it is still an out of pocket issue.  If you spend more than 40% repairing and replacing rusted stuff, then you are likely to wind up "under water" on the car....
Of course, if I ever find a 61 Impala like I drove in high school, I'd probably pay three times what it is worth even if it is a pile of rust.  I'll hold it together with a metallic paint job!

[ds1]

You have to first know, and be serious about your abilities.     I buy nasty junk because it is what I can afford and I have the facility and ability to do the work.     I have been around cars since I could walk.   It is my passion and hobby, just ask my wife.    She puts up with my madness God love her.     I do everything up to and after put and paint.      I really want to learn and get better at body work,  I just lack experience.    I have plenty of body shop friends, just need to be taught.     4 years ago I met a young guy at work who said he wanted to learn how to work on old cars.    I told him I worked everyday after work for three hours building my cars.   He started coming around and learning very quickly and the first time I showed him something he knew it.     I was racing a 68 camaro at the time.   I taught him how to start it,  drag car only.    Then I had him load in on my trailer. After month I let him take the car and warm it up.    One Saturday test session  he came to see how the car was working.    I made 4 runs left it cool 15 minutes and looked at him and said your turn.     He was reluctant.     I told him not to worry.   He knew how it worked just drive it.     His first run was 11.76.    Not bad.    Later on that year he ran it at the end of the season making rounds and getting to the final in 4 races.    Next year I bought him a 67 RS to build.   It needed all the usual panels.   But he has made great progress.   He drove it for the first time two months ago and the first time it has moved under its own power in 30 years.    He has the ability but just needed the encouragement. There is something to be said for having a rust free car to start with.    Stuctural integrity,   and as you point out, cost of panels and replacement .     For me it is time more than anything else.   When you buy a used , loosely said " restored" car,   you do not always know what you are getting.     I always expect some surprises.    We found the 67 was wrecked on the driver side door to quarter.   There was a half inch of putty in it.    We took the putty out and when the quarter was off we heated the inner structure up and moved it back where it belonged with a 7 pound hammer.      Knowing how the cars are put together is huge.     I tell him, Mike, your mind is your limiting factor.

[69Z28-RS]

There's an old rule that is difficult to deny when it comes to cars..  ie.   BUY THE BEST CAR YOU CAN AFFORD, You'll be $$ ahead in the end.

That doesn't necessarily mean to buy a 'restored' car.  I've never purchased a restored car for the reasons mentioned below.  I don't even like buying a car that has been repainted, as so much can be 'hidden' under paint and trim.  I want to see the best metal.. unrusted..  either undamaged, or with damage easily observed and known fixable.  The drivetrain (to me, being a Chevy guy) is lower on the priority list than having good frame and body, next is interior, and last is 'engine'.. (Chevy SB V8's are easily rebuilt or cheaply purchased).   Of course when you can find a totally original, unmolested and unrestored car that is complete...  you are WAY ahead.   

[ds1]

Also buyer beware.   Arm yourself with knowledge.    Some of the worst sellers I have dealt with have been lately on the 68 Z28 I purchased and the 67 Z28 my friend purchased.    The sellers made statements that were just not true.    The  seller of the 67 has just plain lied and I have pointed out inconsistencies in his stories.   I looked at the stack of wheels for the car.  The one on top was a service replacement.   When I mentioned it he said that all the others were correct originals.   When we unloaded them, they were all replacements.   Why lie, it would not changed the outcome.   The car is the real deal that is undisputable.    My 68 the seller claimed the floors, headliner, and interior were in really good condition.   The floor has a hole under the back seat and the driver front floor was replaced.   I saw them, it did not stop me.   The headliner fell apart from sitting, and the back seat has a hole in it from a mouse.    Again not deal breakers, but as you point out cost time and money.   I was told all the wheels were DF.  When I got it home and looked them over it had one wheel.     Not a deal breaker, but why lie.    I am a Camaro guy and will always be one.    I did some quick research, but not enough.   I really learned a lot in the last year about Z28's

[ko-lek-tor]

Trying to stay on topic. For me, it is a "learning curve". Once I buy a project, I really start to learn and absorb all I can about it. Kinda wish I could have all the interest and facts beforehand, but never happens that way. So, the passion really intensifies once I have it in my hands. I also agree with Gary. Rather have a diamond in the rough, untouched. You can just get a better "feel" for the car and what kind of life it has had. Don't want something that has major issues covered over with paint. Maybe it is just my personality or perhaps, my budget, but most artifacts I have including cars, gas pumps, tractors and such, I get them mechanically right, but leave them as found. This Camaro is my 1st restoration and I am starting to regret that decision for several reasons. I really do not have a good grasp of what it will cost to do work right as far as paint and sheet metal. It seems so subjective.

[Stingr69]

The hard and fast rule is this - A rusty car costs more than it is worth while a solid car will cost less in the end. 

[ds1]

The cost is more if you can not do any work.    The 67 we are building will cost no more that $12,000 to build.   Finished, done car.   That includes the $2,000 purchase price.    My 68 Z28 with purchase price will cost me $35,000.    I think both of these will be worth more than that finished.   Both cars are RS with deluxe interiors.    I purchase a lot of unused parts bought for other peoples abandoned projects.   The 67 we just rebuilt the power steering pump to save money buying a rebuilt unit from the parts store.   We rebuild everything.   Engine, rears, suspensions, heater controls, recover the interiors all in house.   I do not rebuild automatic trnsmissions, but have done many Muncies.     I would love to build a car off a Dynacorn body but cost is to high for me to justify.    I come from a depressed economy, we have to do more with less.    And we do because we enjoy it.   I wish I could start with better cars.

[68 Ragtop]

Some people are only interested in numbers matching cars. That's not me.

I am only interested in solid body cars that are free of any major rust.

I just don't have the time and space to repair them and the cost in my area for that kind if work is very expensive.

[VINCE Z28]

Ok lots of good information so far but what about project valuation, what is some of the best places to go that has real world values on project cars... e bay? NADA?  I mean if your son or best friend wanted to get started fixing up 67-69 camaro's where would you send them.

[janobyte]

Try browsing racing junk.com.

Not like I've had the time to play with what I got now....but I do like to " window shop " a lot.  Worth a look. Depends what you want to build ,but as Gary said, SBC's are relatively cheap. Might find a roller project.

My guess is if there was 1 site with solid project cars, everyone would hear quick, and up go the prices !

[lakeholme]

Ok lots of good information so far but what about project valuation, what is some of the best places to go that has real world values on project cars... e bay? NADA?  I mean if your son or best friend wanted to get started fixing up 67-69 camaro's where would you send them.

NADA is more realistic in their values, but Hagerty lists prices according to condition. Both presume the car is drivable. But there is a $30,000 difference between the values of both on a #4 69 Z....
I'd join a local club and talk with as many local restorers as I could.  If there are local buyers that will be honest with you, they can give you an idea.
Working out a price point is getting harder every day.

[ds1]

Prices in general are to high.    I used call it the "if he is asking x amount for his car and I have one like it, mine should be worth the same."      Condition, history and rarity should be how cars are evaluated.   But with TV shows making profits on cars people think what they have is worth a lot.     I remember when convertibles were not worth as much as coupes.    Now they want 10 k more fore a convertible than a coupe.      I know I did well when I bought the 67 RS for 2k.     Face it there are a lot still out there and for sale.     This is a tough question.

[Hideawaze]

My problem is, having what is like Beer Goggles , I can`t see the car for what it is ,but rather what it was or could be again....then wind up married to it

[ds1]

My problem is, having what is like Beer Goggles , I can`t see the car for what it is ,but rather what it was or could be again....then wind up married to it

   
But separating from a car is WAY easier and cheaper.   I sold 3 this year that I do not have the time or desire to do and hate seeing them sit.