Nagging questions about parts and restoration direction

[ko-lek-tor]

Hey Gang,
This is a 3 part question that I feel is connected and relevant enough to keep as one thread. If you reply to one aspect of the 3 questions, please put a #(1-3) before your response, so others know what question you are responding to.
I'll start off by saying my car is more of a passion or love affair and its restoration has more to do with its sentimental value and memories it made for me as a teen. Having shared that, a lot of my hobbies have an intrinsic component, meaning they tend to be good investments that seem to justify the enjoyment I get while knowing they appreciate is comforting too. That is why I don't collect lint or suppositories,lol. I share this because the business side of me says to protect the value of the investment, but money is not everything especially in regards to my cars. I am not looking for replies that say things like,it's your car, make it the way you want, or you will never recoup the money, so what does it matter. I am more looking to get pragmatic, constructive feedback on some questions that have been nagging me of late regarding both aspects of parts and restoration direction and overall value.I know these questions do not have a simple yes/no. It will be a collaboration of experience that I hope to draw an understanding of some decisions I need to resolve before I proceed further in my restoration. So you swap meet types, and guys who have been down the" money pit highway" of restoration, weigh in on what you see and experience. You guys and your opinions matter and the experiences and view points are appreciated, so here goes:

1) Parts- I have many NOS parts acquired years ago before prices rocketed. I also have many "scarce" items like original curved neck BB radiator, endura bumper/jack etc...My car does not have the "coveted" paper work or matching engine. I kind of relish the fact I have these original parts, but realize they may not affect overall value of the car once finished. I also realize I could sell some of these items for a substantial profit and use the money towards fixing my body and paint. There are a couple of sheetmetal parts I still need. Would you sell the NOS stuff and get reproduction (read all the stories about fitting), sell radiator and such and get repro to replace? The couple of items needed are a LH fender and deck lid. Would you look for NOS items since everything else you already have is NOS, so you can boast no repro body panels, or mix the parts or sell the NOS?

2) This has to do with reproduction parts used values ( a vague area, I find). I scour the web on occasion looking for parts, like many here. Most items that I need now are available as reproduction and most likely the only way to go as far as cost and availability, like rubber items and some chrome stuff. Is there a rule about prices to pay for repro parts sold by private parties, left over from their resto? I ask because many prices for these repro parts from sellers are as high or higher than going to the vendor? I mean, this stuff is not hard to come by, it can be bought any day of the week, so why the high price? Is there a rule ( a depreciation) applied or accepted for such parts that guys, here, might have a consensus? How about stuff that is new, but bolted on only, sometimes never left the shop or showroom? Is that still a new part or is it like when a car is driven off the lot and has some depreciation? If you are trying to buy a repro part, like an outer door handle, how can you tell if it is the $34 pair or the $90 pr. and if the person does not know, what price would you offer not knowing?

3) This regards overall car's value after restoration. I have read on this site some opinions about values of restored cars stating it does not affect the value of the car overall if NOS vs. Reproduction sheetmetal (I assume other type parts as well) are used. You will not recoup your costs (for NOS). So, why use these parts? I have my own personal reasons, like I do not want/like repro parts or want Chinese stuff on my beloved car. The reality is, I will have to eventually put some items that are repro. So how much repro does it make a difference in value? Should the whole car be repro, because it does not affect value? If you considered a purchase, how does the following statements affect value? "car has all original panels",Car has mixture of original and NOS panels", "Car has new sheet metal" Now, I am not talking about how desirable or what you would prefer, I am seeking how it affects the overall value. Should parts replaced  be as little as possible, protecting integrity and  originality of car? Unlike the 1st question of should I keep it all GM opposed to selling off parts and going the repro route? I am looking for % of repro parts vs total overall value to car opinions here?  

[HawkX66]

1. In your case, having a NOM, I would mix the NOS and repro. The motor probably affects the value more than not going after all the missing NOS parts you don't have. If the parts you don't have are crazy expensive or hard to find, I'd go repro for what you don't have probably and seeing how you already have some of the NOS parts you've completed the hard part for them. Acquiring them. The more NOS or original the better. It depends on how far you're going with the resto and what the end purpose is. NOM isn't the end to a car or it's value. Does it hurt the value? Of course to most. For you, if you're keeping it, it just means if someone looks at the stamp pad, they'll see a different number there. Does it really change the value to you? Are you really worried about someone moving your alternator to see the stamp pad?

2. Used parts. 50% of new for me as a general guide. $34 or $90 part and can't be proven beyond a doubt? It's the $34 part.

3. Tough one. I think to some it will really matter if the 1/4s are NOS or not. Prove they are w/o a receipt after they're installed and painted properly?!? Unless you have a chinese fender that's obvious or 1/4 that was installed poorly, I don't see it affecting the value unless you have a $100k+ car. I agree with your opinion on not putting chinese parts on our cars. Like you, there will be very few things that crossed the ocean going on my car. I think the value is more dependant on how the parts were installed and the quality of work.

[69Z28-RS]

Ko-Lec-tor..
For all of us 'car lovers' who aren't rich, we have to make compromises.  There's an intrinsic part to every decision we do with a car we've owned for a long time, or one we've coveted for a long time.  Few of us do anything 'purely' for the $$, but at the same time, unless we are rich, we have to consider the costs and return (whether it be $$ return a long time from now, or the enjoyment return as we drive the car)..

1)  It depends on which part you are speaking of.   My own 'opinions' and preferences are:  a) Original to my car, b) factory original to 'someone's car, even if it needs rebuilding/restoring/etc, c) NOS,  d) repro -US built, and e) 'other repro' (as a very last resort).   What I LIKE best is good original parts, even if more dull - ie. less new looking, and in some cases, a 40-50 yr old original part will look better than a 2-3 yr old reproduction part.   Regarding the radiator you have.  Don't you NEED a BB radiator? or are you going to aftermarket AL?? or ??   If you need the part that is original to your car, then don't sell it.   Re your NOS parts...  If they are worth considerably more than a good usable 'original' part, and the used part 'works' with your car, then sell the NOS?   If you are trying to *preserve* your car in as original a condition as possible, then that should answer most of your questions... .  Panels:  you *may* spend more making the reproduction panel (or even in some cases an NOS part) fit to your car, than repairing the original panel.   My approach is to make as minimal a repair as possible.  if you have 'rust or damage in only one area, then buy a reproduction panel that is larger than your rust/damage, cut it down to make the minimal repair.  If I bought an NOS panel I'd use the entire thing.  PS>   you'll never be able to use any of your 'good parts' unless and until you get your body work completed, so that adds another complexity....
2) I'd not be very interested in a 'used' Reproduction Part (except for a part I don't have and can't afford even in repro?)?  Generally a reproduction part bought this year will be better than the reproduction parts bought 10 yrs ago.   Repro parts are not perfect, but the manufacturers of them generally DO try to improve them based on the feedback they get.  Buying repro should be a last resort (IMO), and buying 'used repro' is a step below that IMO...
3) I think you can answer this part yourself (as we all can).  It DOES depend on what we want (or need).   What would YOU prefer?  What can you afford?  The bottom line is to FINISH your car, however you can afford it.   The most affordable means to finish a car is to:  1) use your original parts and rebuild them, and 2) do the work yourself (or get a car club buddy who is experienced on that task to assist you, and in return, you can assist him on something he needs that you are more expert in).
Remember that paying someone $50/man-hr or more can eat up a lot of $$ in a hurry.

[69 SS 350 X-55]

Really good questions. I am in the same place as you except mine is all matching except tranny. I bought all I could NOS in the early 80s,cowl hood  ,90 % of the cowl ind. parts,RS fenders/parts. SIS (self inflicted stupidity) set in and I sold the SS hood and front clip and put RS front clip on a original X55 SS . Now I need rear 1/4s and a full trunk and front cowl. I want American made parts on my project ,I'll settle for used,can't afford NOS. hoping some of my other stuff sells before Autofair this yr. Didn't answer your questions ,but I am waiting for others more knowledgeable to post on this. yes I am a newbie.I am the 2 nd owner of a 1969 SS X55 that I bought in 1978 that has been sitting since 1986.

[z28z11]

1) I, like you, bought many NOS parts in the early '80's while they were available and inexpensive. Getting three kids through college the last several years forced my hand - I have had to part with too many rare and desirable things over time, hopefully no more. My advice to you is to keep the needed parts for your restoration, and sell accumulated or speculative parts to finance paint/body/future parts. NOS is getting so scarce and high dollar, my take on it is "if you need it, keep it". NOS fits better, looks better, and will show in the completed restoration. Use repro as a very last resort. I constantly scour swap meets, shows and on line chasing the next good used part, NOS small parts, even years that I don't have represented to use as future swap or sell items - you can make some decent money selling inventory items, while keeping your "core" items intact.

Regards,
Steve

[BULLITT65]

A lot of us have pondered the same questions that you have raised during a build. I just finished a car ( not a Camaro) for my wife. The 1965 was incomplete when I purchased it.
1) I did not need any sheet metal. I would compare the NOS sheet metal vs. the repop right in front of me for past cars. If it fit as good as NOS or about the same (sometimes NOS doesn't fit as nice as you would imagine), then I would have no issue with the repop. prime it paint it and you would be the only person who would know if it is intalled correctly.

2) parts: I  went to the junk yard got a few goodies I was missing on the interior, and then spent some time on craigslist finding original glass for the side windows, and few odds and ends that guys had extras to sell when I got there. I wanted to complete the car with the best affordable quality, and tight a budget as I could without somebody looking at my car and saying it was a heap of repop parts. I shopped through catalogs, through ebay, craigslist, and compiled a list of what I needed and cost of each supplier: so first column-cheapest price, next column - good original, third possible column- NOS. Then if i knew the parts first hand, and knew the repro was crap, I would go to the good original, if the repro was good I would go with it to save the money, and all my vehicles are drivers, so most of the time NOS isn't necessary because once installed it immediately turns into good original. Now there are a few select items that are seen where good original or NOS is the only way to go, so at times I was forced to find or even restore some parts myself because the repop appearance was not close enough to original for me.

3) While my original intention was building a nice original driver for my wife, as luck would have it my uncle informed me he was selling his original owner unrestored 65 fastback, so I decided to sell the convertible that I put together for my wife. It had mostly original parts, some reproduction, but presented very nice. I put it on ebay , and it sold as good as any other convertible with the same options. My point is the reproduction parts are not going to hurt the value if they don't stand out as reproductions. If it were all original and NOS parts i could have advertised it as such, but I really don't think it would have bid any higher than it did. IMO what sells a classic car today is first color combination, then someone will look at originality of drive train, then guys will scrutinize quality of work/parts.
In closing, I always keep in mind if I put a repop on the car and don't like it, I'll look for good used or a good deal on NOS. Now of the car was all original and matching drive train, I would probably error more on NOS or original parts. hope this helps.

[janobyte]

I'd go restomod ,or protour or what ever they call it. See the prices these cars are demanding? Hang what you have on the car and go from there. Honestly if a car's more" Classic Industries" than GM---also what's wrong with putting 2 buckets ,a cage and a crate BBC in and take mama drag racing? More fun turning a 10 than watching the grass grow anyway! Bottom line I wouldn't obsess so much what it might be worth--priority is body ,anything else are just bolt ons. Stay warm!!

[ko-lek-tor]

I'd go restomod ,or protour or what ever they call it. See the prices these cars are demanding? Hang what you have on the car and go from there. Honestly if a car's more" Classic Industries" than GM---also what's wrong with putting 2 buckets ,a cage and a crate BBC in and take mama drag racing? More fun turning a 10 than watching the grass grow anyway! Bottom line I wouldn't obsess so much what it might be worth--priority is body ,anything else are just bolt ons. Stay warm!!

Geez janobyte, surely that is the alcohol talking??lol. That car of mine, that "chariot", that "radical righteous ride", that living (on life support albeit)shrine of my youth,  will be some sort of "LAWN ART" or "FLOWER POT" in the front yard before I let it succumb to the rrrrestommmm...,prrrro...can't even say those words!!! Someone, check out janobyte's ID and credentials, surely he is an imposter Camaro-ite, brother from another mother, infiltrating the loyalty of all CRGers!! Disclaimer: No animosity towards anyone, here, love you janobyte, like a brother, that goes for all you guys, just having fun,lol.

Seriously, The last part you mention, about the body, is where I am hung up. I know where some real nice original font fenders are that are non-RS. I could get those and put the braces in them. I have a pair of Std. NOS fenders and 1 RH RS NOS right now. Should I patch the LH original (which was replaced prior to my owning cause of accident damage evidence) and use the NOS RH. Should I find a NOS LH RS (pricey), buy Repro RS (1 or both), sell NOS. You see, it is confusing. Don't forget I have 2 other cars that eventually parts could be used on. I bought the NOS std fenders for the blue SS originally. I am thinking real hard about buying this nice set of original (Cali) fenders for blue car and selling the pair of NOS I have. that is what got me thinking about this topic. Decisions?! Before I do something regrettable, I am trying to explore my options. I can buy a set of repro, both std and RS, fenders(that's 4 fenders) probably for what someone might give for the 1 NOS RS fender, I am led to believe anyway. I have read that OE installed factory sheet metal is preferable to NOS, here on the site. So this is one example: A)Get another NOS RS fender to match what I have. B) Buy used OE std fenders and add RS braces. C) Patch LH fender (if possible or worth it- that will have to be determined by body guy) D)Sell the NOS and buy repro to replace putting funds toward bodywork. Mind you this scenario plays out for wheel well moldings, rocker spears, core support, etc.. I have already read how crappy the repro wheel well moldings are (were) . I am particular and want car authentic and correct and I would never thought I would be debating this, but the quality of repro stuff is improving and the NOS stuff is at a premium and its not like I own a car 1/2 as nice as a lot on here.

[BULLITT65]

Since money doesn't sound to tight, and the repro fenders sound like an option: get the repro fenders, and the good originals and fit what you have if you can make them work, run them. If your repro supplier is close by, return it and say it didn't fit close enough. I have bought items that were in stock from good mark, if it didn't fit close enough, (sometimes way off) I had no issue with returning them. I test fit everything NOS, Original, and repro, because 40 years has gone by, and it seems some stuff fits spot on, other stuff even NOS stuff can be off. I bought a "NOS" fender for my 64 C/10, it was the worst fitting piece I had between the 3. The repro fit better, original was a close second,( the original was a bit rough, remember were talking truck). Just want you take the easy road, instead of trying to wrestle with stuff that may fit someone else's ride much better.
One other thing Camaros are not Ferrari's that were assembled by hand, and the fitment from the factory was not precise, like we expect at cars shows today. GM kicked 10s of thousands of cars out the factory doors every week, panel fit was a "its good enough" its within the margin of error type of thing. Today with our own cars we tend to be more picky and want all the gaps to be spot on, when a lot of parts have even more variance we are looking for the opposite. Just something to keep in mind when test fitting, is all.

[Sauron327]

Kolektor.
 #1. Are these early or late stamped NOS? It makes a difference. Even early stamped is no guarantee. Best bet is usually assembly line take offs even if they need work. You have the NOS fenders so mock those up. If they align very well, need no mods for a factory fit, and the edge and radii crispness are nice, those may be the good choice.  How much labor do you think you'll be giving a shop to make those 4 repro fenders fit if you sell one NOS fender, providing that NOS fender fits well? You say you are particular so be prepared to pay. What gaps do you want? Factory or better?
 
You are paying a shop, so all labor to make an imperfect panel fit is T&M. Even the best fitting GM panel is extra T&M if you want show gaps. Repro panel production varies and what's successful for one job or productiuon run may not be for another. Nobody I know makes a really nice quality, good fitting repro decklid; they run narrow. Find an original otherwise its back to T&M. Show gaps on decklids whether GM or not will require work. A shop is not going to know what labor is required to meet your objectives until they hang a panel on the car.

Stick to comparing Camaro sheetmental parts and dismiss all other makes and models; what applies to those has little to do with these. Your bodyshop should know all this. If they do not start looking for another one.

[ko-lek-tor]

Kolektor.
 #1. Are these early or late stamped NOS? It makes a difference. Even early stamped is no guarantee. Best bet is usually assembly line take offs even if they need work. You have the NOS fenders so mock those up. If they align very well, need no mods for a factory fit, and the edge and radii crispness are nice, those may be the good choice.  How much labor do you think you'll be giving a shop to make those 4 repro fenders fit if you sell one NOS fender, providing that NOS fender fits well? You say you are particular so be prepared to pay. What gaps do you want? Factory or better?
 
You are paying a shop, so all labor to make an imperfect panel fit is T&M. Even the best fitting GM panel is extra T&M if you want show gaps. Repro panel production varies and what's successful for one job or productiuon run may not be for another. Nobody I know makes a really nice quality, good fitting repro decklid; they run narrow. Find an original otherwise its back to T&M. Show gaps on decklids whether GM or not will require work. A shop is not going to know what labor is required to meet your objectives until they hang a panel on the car.

Stick to comparing Camaro sheetmental parts and dismiss all other makes and models; what applies to those has little to do with these. Your bodyshop should know all this. If they do not start looking for another one.

1) Not sure what constitutes early vs. late panel. I don't recall buying any panels or trim after getting married in '82 except a RH door skin.

1 cont) Particular yes, but do not let that translate to a rigid perfectionist (can't afford that and don't want a 1000 pt. trailer queen,-besides, car will never be that without #'s engine.). To clarify: I want things done factory correct (as practical). I have seen emblems misplaced, stripes wrong in size, color and position and Lord knows what else. If you know better,and I would like to think that is why we all are here, then, make it right. I do not need to have GM fan belts, but I am particular that the car has factory deep groove pulleys. This example is to show what you might find on a one owner or unmolested car. I don't want over restored, I want to drive the car. My hope is it would come out looking like a cleaned or degreased survivor that is rust free with new paint. Factory paint and fit is what I am after.
Hell, In 53 years, I've never had any of my old cars painted. I'm about ready to settle for a Krylon job. Now, how particular does that sound?lol

[69Z28-RS]

Since money doesn't sound to tight, and the repro fenders sound like an option: get the repro fenders, and the good originals and fit what you have if you can make them work, run them. If your repro supplier is close by, return it and say it didn't fit close enough. I have bought items that were in stock from good mark, if it didn't fit close enough, (sometimes way off) I had no issue with returning them. I test fit everything NOS, Original, and repro, because 40 years has gone by, and it seems some stuff fits spot on, other stuff even NOS stuff can be off. I bought a "NOS" fender for my 64 C/10, it was the worst fitting piece I had between the 3. The repro fit better, original was a close second,( the original was a bit rough, remember were talking truck). Just want you take the easy road, instead of trying to wrestle with stuff that may fit someone else's ride much better.
One other thing Camaros are not Ferrari's that were assembled by hand, and the fitment from the factory was not precise, like we expect at cars shows today. GM kicked 10s of thousands of cars out the factory doors every week, panel fit was a "its good enough" its within the margin of error type of thing. Today with our own cars we tend to be more picky and want all the gaps to be spot on, when a lot of parts have even more variance we are looking for the opposite. Just something to keep in mind when test fitting, is all.

Bullitt?  Did your car slip out of the factory without the 'B' stamp on the firewall?      J/K

Unless I'm mistaken Chevy's body fit (gap) spec was 1/4" +/- 1/16 (ie. 3/16 - 5/16")..  Of course a car looks much better if all the gaps are consistent and not towards the 5/16" end of the spread...     Unfortunately, after 40-50 years, there isn't many cars that have escaped 'incidents' (bumps, scrapes, wrecks, body shops, etc), so those factory specs go out the window once the typical 'body shop' has had their fun.

[BULLITT65]

"Stick to comparing Camaro sheetmental parts and dismiss all other makes and models; what applies to those has little to do with these. Your bodyshop should know all this. If they do not start looking for another one."

While I agree you want to go to a body shop that likes consistent panel fitment, I don't see a quality shop taking a customers 69 Camaro and saying "well this is a 69 Camaro we have to really make the car fit together good now", that would be suspect to me. My 69 Camaro hasn't been apart since it left the assembly line, and I can tell you first hand even with all the assembly line parts it is doesn't look as nice as some of the "show" cars I have seen. From the few different makes and models I have, the reproduction Vs. original Vs. NOS is the same across the line for panel fitment. The Camaro isn't exclusive in that category. Now as far as trim and the other odds and ends I am sure there are differences with the different suppliers Vs. what Gm fitted the car with.

Bullitt?  Did your car slip out of the factory without the 'B' stamp on the firewall?  Smiley    J/K

Gary, first I wouldn't have bought it if it had that "B", secondly knowing the original owners preferences, he wouldn't have paid a penny more for anything that didn't make the car go faster. (when I was searching for a 69 Z I did run across a couple with the "B" , out of 4 Garnet Red cars I looked closely at  2 had removed the vinyl top and had repainted the car without it. )

I have one car with a vinyl top, (66 Impala SS). After repairing the rust from moisture being trapped under the top, when I finished the car I did put the vinyl top back on, and for me 1 car with a vinyl top is enough for me...

James, I think as a buyer I would rather see original GM fenders that have had small repairs than reproduction fenders. As far as a full quarter I agree with Gary I would repair the panel with repro metal, but if the damage is extensive enough to warrant the full panel, and you have a GM full quarter , I would replace with the full GM piece. I think even before you posted you have a good head on your shoulders and you will turn out a clean car you can be proud of, both with quality and the time and money you have invested. 

[ko-lek-tor]

Thanks Bullitt65, I think the "B" Gary is referring to is the B in PBT, not the "B" as in Blk Vinyl top, which, if I read it right, is what you are referring to.

Bulllitt, you will have to forgive me, but you left yourself open here and I am saving you from hearing it from Gary,lol: Your quote,"he wouldn't have paid a penny more for anything that didn't make the car go faster.". If going faster was his goal, I am surprised he didn't order H.O.?!...sorry,lol

Quarters:As far as a full quarter I agree with Gary I would repair the panel with repro metal, but if the damage is extensive enough to warrant the full panel, and you have a GM full quarter , I would replace with the full GM piece. Too late, I had them put on in 83. GM of course. I got another pair up in the rafters though.

In an earlier post, you stated: about my situation, that money did not seem too tight. Well, lets just say the sky's not the limit.

[Sauron327]

That's not what I meant. You mentioned a 64 C/10 panel. You can't compare a different make and model repro or factory body part when evaluating Camaro parts. If a Goodmark quarter fits a Chevelle nicely it does not mean Goodmark is good choice for a Camaro resto. On the last job I did, the atrocious Goodmark fenders and doors supplied by the customer were discarded and replaced with AMD and GM. I've used enouigh repro and GM sheetmetal parts to know that some repro tin is garbage and requires extensive labor and mods to make them fit. Same goes for late stamped NOS fenders that have wrinkles, overly round radii, and poor alignment and edge definition. This is not my hobby, it's my profession.

"Stick to comparing Camaro sheetmental parts and dismiss all other makes and models; what applies to those has little to do with these. Your bodyshop should know all this. If they do not start looking for another one."

While I agree you want to go to a body shop that likes consistent panel fitment, I don't see a quality shop taking a customers 69 Camaro and saying "well this is a 69 Camaro we have to really make the car fit together good now", that would be suspect to me. My 69 Camaro hasn't been apart since it left the assembly line, and I can tell you first hand even with all the assembly line parts it is doesn't look as nice as some of the "show" cars I have seen. From the few different makes and models I have, the reproduction Vs. original Vs. NOS is the same across the line for panel fitment. The Camaro isn't exclusive in that category.