If you bought a car based on certification.........

[Jerry@CHP]

It is Sat morning and I am waiting for call from Rodent now to discuss this car.  I am back from my trips this week. 

Also wanted to let everyone know on this site that the undercarrige in my report was listed in fair to good, rocker panels will need work!!  Trunk will need work!!  It also states in my report that this car will need a full frame off restoration!!!!!  It's a "Project car".  It's not a car that is a driver by any means!  The car needs everything.

I should also tell everyone here that I did not have use of a lift or floor jack at the time of my inspection.  The main concern to my original client was the engine being real and that this car was a real Z28.  I could stick my head under the car and see that it was a Saginaw trans and the seller also stated that too.

Each car that I inspect and certify has a different scope and what I do is between me and my client.  I will not discuss all the details on an open forum as this helps the counterfeiters.  Did I check this car to see if it was back halfed, no I did not and I take full responsibility for that.  If anyone out there thinks this is an easy job, have at it. 

Hylton has always questioned the integrity of what I do and how I do it yet I have never met him or seen him at a national Camaro event.  I don't know if he restores cars, races them, collects them, sells them or even owns any Camaros.  What I do know is he worships someone in another camp.  I will leave it at that.

Jerry         

[69LM1]

"quote author=JimM
I've seen several certification reports that were displayed with cars for sale, and included areas that were "whited out" "



Jim, I know that as the values change freqently on these cars that many (including me) will regularly cover the "value" line on Jerry's report when selling a car, especially on Ebay to not affect bidding. I do however, when asked, provide a full copy to anyone that asks for one on a car I am selling.

As always, anyone who is buying a car with Jerry or anyone else's cert (Or as Hylton said GM Canada) should call that person and ask questions, PRIOR to purchase, IMO.

One of the things I personally like is being able to call and talk to Jerry when buying or selling a car, and get the "scoop". Let's face it, with paperwork that you can't trust these days, and NICB that most of us cannot get and verify, it's is a big help to be able to ask questions of someone who has seen a car independantly. It has helped me sell some cars, buy some cars and steer clear of some cars.

Also, one other point and a "Dirty Little Secret"- In many cases a car is restored with NOS parts, gets inspected, and then upon being sold restamped parts replace the NOS parts prior to sale. On a six figure car you should always have it reinspected IMO.

Rich

[duntov3030]

............by a well known guy who certifies a certain type of Camaro.......and it turns out that the car is not all it seems........what would you do  
 

You can see from my limited number of posts that I'm not a "frequent flyer" here.  I check in from time to time.  After reading this thread though, I feel compelled to offer some thoughts.  And please understand that my comments are offered as my opinion(s), offered as a gentleman, not intended as disdain towards others, etc.

This post started as a question, asking "..... what would you do" and has morphed into several topics ranging from re-bodying of cars, inspection practices, etc.  Frankly, I can't believe the moderator(s) have let the thread continue as it has.  Nonetheless, here are my comments:

- Answering the initial question posted by the author, "what would you do", I would accept the responsibility of making a huge buyer's mistake by purchasing a car sight unseen (author's words) first.  I would also accept the responsibility of another buyer's mistake by not inspecting the car immediately upon delivery.  Then, I would determine whether the car has been mis-represented by the seller, if I had any issues/recourse with any mis-representations by the seller and ultimately, whether I wanted to keep the car, or not.  I would  set out on a course of action based on the decision I came to, keeping in mind that I dealt with the seller, not any previous inspectors, appriaisers, etc.

- In regards to the other off-topic content in this thread, I offer the following:
     - Author states "I was not really concerned about the condition of the car".  Why are you so concerned now?
     - Author states "..... bought it sight unseen because it had been certified....."  Another mistake if you didn't hire the certifier, giving him explicit
       direction(s), or know what direction was given to the certifier by the one that did hire him.
     - Author states that the previous owner says he didn't know of the "problem" with the car and author calls BS.  I don't consider myself a Camaro
       expert, but I have owned many cars in my lifetime, worked on many cars, etc.  I have a keen eye for things mechanical.  Yet, my eye for
       bodywork related things is not so good.  I have many times been shown bodywork related things on cars I've owned by others, things that I
       couldn't see, didn't look for, etc.  The previous owner might be telling the truth.
     - IMO, post author has no issue with car inspector/appraiser Jerry MacNeish.  It appears that Jerry was not hired by the author, thus he has no
       entitlement to any comment, input, whatever from Jerry.  His issue(s) should be with the seller of the car.

- In regards to the other off-topic content in this thread, specifically relating to Jerry MacNeish, I offer the following:
     - Jerry's client was the seller of this car, who's concern was whether the car was a real Z/28 and whether it had the original engine.  It appears from
       information presented that those concerns were addressed and answered.
     - IMO, Jerry has given the current owner of this car much more time/attention/diaglogue than he is entitled to.
     - Others have posted in this thread regarding the contributions offered by Jerry MacNeish to our hobby.  I couldn't agree more.
       - Jerry offers, thru his books, at miminal price, a lifetime of Camaro specific education.  Many, many people have educated themselves and
         improved/expanded our hobby by using his publications alone.  IMO, they are cheap at four times what he charges now.  He is not greedy, but
         could be.
       - I have hired Jerry as a Camaro inspector/appraiser, as have many of my friends and associates.  It is my opinion that one always gets more than
         they pay for.  
           - He allows car owner's/presenters to be a part of his inspection/appraisal process, when he really doesn't have to.  
           - He provides education during the inspection/appraisal process, when he really doesn't have to.  
       - IMO, the price one pays for a Jerry MacNeish certification/inspection/appraisal is a value.  I'm of the opinion that having Jerry's endorsement (of a
         real car) adds value to your car equal to at least twice what you pay him to do it, probably more.  Again, he could be greedy and ask for more.  
         He does not.
       - As others have pointed out, Jerry routinely offers "free" advice to those of us who frequent these forums, car shows, events, whatever.  Look at
         the time on many of his posts around.  You know they're done after a long day at the shop, many calls, lots of travel, etc.  He doesn't have to
         answer our questions, or provide excellent/informative comment, but he does.  IMO, this comes from a person interested in perpetuating our
         hobby, not one interested in just personal gain.
       - I would recommend Jerry MacNeish to anyone in need of his services.  You will find him extremely competent, and extremely professional.  And,
         as busy as he is, his detailed, inclusive report will be on your desk within a few days of his visit.  My recommendation if you do consider hiring  
         Jerry, be specific in what your expectations are from him.  He will let you know if he can/can't meet those expectations.  

Again, I am not a frequent poster here.  Thanks for allowing me to wax eloquent on this topic and thanks to CRG and others for what you do for our hobby.

Regards,

Butch Everett

[Jerry@CHP]

Thanks Butch,

Just wanted to let all know here that I've been in the shop all morning and have not heard from Rodent Jim.  I am still willing to talk to Jim and hopefully give a better understanding about this car and the journey you should take to bring it back to new restored condition.

Jerry

[vtfb68]

After following this thread my "respect" for a "certified" car is gone.  I never knew that they can be tilted depending on what the person paying wants to hilghight. I thought the inspection would be the same no matter what the out come was. Buyer Beware for sure!!
  Victor

[sd1968z28]

back to the spliced car.  this was and still is common practice in the body shop arena.  in fact my 1971 camaro was back halved some time in the 70s when it was fairly new.  it is still in one or should i say two pieces.  when i found this out in the early 80s i was heart broken.  the manager at our dealership bodyshop assured me it was fine.  and guess what it was.  no one did this to forge a certain car it was done to repair a fairly new car i would guess.  give jerry a break, i have met him personally can't say i agree with everything he told me about my car, but he was being honest as he saw it.   unless every car is stripped to bare steel who knows what is under the shiny stuff.   i have media blasting equipment at my shop,  the stuff we uncover is sometimes shocking.

[Jerry@CHP]

Just to let everyone know that Jim and I talked this afternoon.  I told him that I would move forward with the restoration as the car does have its original engine and it deserves to be restored.  Many 302's were blown up in '68 from abuse and racing, this car did not lose its OEM engine and that is very important for the hobby........and the car.

Jerry   

[Sauron327]

So the car was clipped, big deal. Might have been hard to tell if down on the ground and done a long time ago. If someone wants an uncut car they are going to have to burp for it. I've clipped many cars and if I found a car with an origional drivetrain I'd clip that too if it got poked in the rear or t-boned. Sure not going to crush it. No different than changing every body panel as most do anyway. Nice clips were easily obtained years ago so it was done just as it's done on today's cars. Take a look at the Mopar scene. You can simply unbolt the entire dash with the VIN of a 68 Mopar, bolt it in another car and no one would be the wiser. But you better make sure you change all the components on the rest of the car that designates it's correctness. Now that is not the car that came off the assembly line but it's been done.

[Ron C.]

the car you are looking at is my 71 ss ls5 454 chevelle,numbers matching, protectoplate,dealer invoice,sales contract, bought from the original owner who was letting it rot in his backyard.The trunk,rearfloor under the rear seat and wheelhouses and quarters were trash.I bought a half of a chevelle from arizona,the rear half and had the cars backhalf replaced.The chassis (frame) in the rear was also trash and I changed the whole frame also.The car was worth saveing as its a real SS LS5 with its original drivetrain and yes the original color is mulsanne blue.I get compliments wherever I go with it and I drive it all over. They made over 9,000 LS5 chevelles in 1971,they only made 7,199 68 Z/28s,so its worth saveing that 68Z even if you have to do a little more work to it.You are saveing a part of automotive history so when its done drive it and enjoy it!!

[BlackoutSteve]

Much more than 1/2 of this car was replaced, so I have to say yes to it being a rebody. Imagine if GM simply put one of the hidden VINs on the rear parcel shelf. I reckon that would change many opinions and this argument quite a bit..
That's just my opinion.. I know Jim personally and obviously have a simpathetic view about t/his situation.
I know I'd feel the same that he does about it.

Is it a pity or an advantage that all 3 VINs are practically in the same place allowing them to be easily retained?

[KurtS]

I'm a big proponent of looking at a car before you buy it. Sight unseen is asking for problems. Even with an appraisal (that did not state much on the body condition, positive or negative). Not to say the info on the appraisal can't be improved, but you gotta see the car....

Frankly, I can't believe the moderator(s) have let the thread continue as it has.

I (and others) have watched this post closely. One post needed clarification, that's it. Thanks for keeping it civil guys!

As long as things are being discussed in a reasonable manner, a thread can generally run it's course. Some of the issues/unrest on other forums comes from closing, editing, or restricting posts.  I want to maintain the openess and general good-nature that exists on this forum.

I would have let this thread continue. But, per the request of the original poster, I'm going to close it.