replacement 302 block

[pjbizjak]

If one was to find a 3914678(68 Z./28) replacement block with a casting date code that was 1 - 4 weeks before the cars build date and then had it decked and restamped  with the vin and asmbly date codings, would that be considered still 'numbers matching'? Also the original crank, pistons etc were used in the rebuild and those part numbers and dates match.

[68Zproject]

Not in my book.  It either has the original engine it came out of the factory with, or it doesn't.  After that, it doesn't matter as any engine you put in it will not be the original one.  But, if you want to be close, you need an MO motor that is dated close to your car's build date.  Restamping anything is not well received in restoration circles.  It creates doubt about any authenticity of the whole car.

[jonboy1216]

x2 a counterfeiter would be a crook in my book

[Indy 69]

x 3 for me too. Stamping a block to suit your requirements is a "BIG NO NO"  !

[BlackoutSteve]

The whole point of "numbers matching" is to have the ORIGINAL engine that was assembled in the car.
Restamping another block to suggest it's the original is exactly the same as restamping a VIN on another car body.

[Dusk Blue Z]

I have followed posts like this, here and on other sites for a long time. The question was, if the block date code lines up and the numbers were stamped on after a deck job is the engine numbers matching? In my opinion, yes they “match” what was originally in the car. Is it the “Born With” or the “Original” engine, NO!

Today some of the restamps are darn near impossible to tell from originals, others not so much… I think the issue most people have is falsely representing as original something that is known not to be for a higher profit during a sale. With some of the litigation that has recently taken place around the authenticity of some high end cars I think it be in a sellers best interest not to misrepresent a vehicle.

What if someone was almost lucky enough to win the lottery and found a block that was built the same day as the one needed for their car. It’s not a “restamp” and it’s not “original”.

Mike

[68Zproject]

I think it be in a sellers best interest not to misrepresent a vehicle.

What if someone was almost lucky enough to win the lottery and found a block that was built the same day as the one needed for their car. It’s not a “restamp” and it’s not “original”.

Mike

Even if you don't intend to misrepresent a vehicle, stamping something that wasn't there throws into question every other part of the whole car, at least it would to me.  Why would someone go to all the trouble of stamping an engine to match the original just for fun?  It's a worthless exercise unless you intend to sell it as original or keep it forever and make people think you have the original in your car.

The luck of finding an engine that is close, is just hard and sometimes long work.  That is why people try to get as close as they can, thinking it is more valuable because of the length they went to to get it that close.

[Indy 69]

Stamping the block with numbers which match the VIN, supposed engine and date codes of the car is making the numbers match, of course it is in theory but in reality it has achieved nothing.  It does not make it a "matching numbers" engine to the car. What we are talking about here is taking say an "ME" coded block and then after the machine work transforming it into an "MO" block. I don't see how that works?
 
I am under the impression that in Camaro judging circles and please someone step in and correct me if I am wrong here, that a car which no longer has it's original factory installed engine, but has a block which has the correct code, a date close to the build date of the car and also has the VIN of the other car along with it's original factory stampings in place, then that car is acceptable for judging. Naturally it would lose points for not having the original block. In a case like that neither the car or engine are misrepresented at all. It is for example a 68 Z28 that still has an original MO block, but not the one the factory installed. No the car would not be presented with it's "original" engine but it would not be a "re-stamp" either, I know which one I would rather have! 

IMO, "Matching Numbers" is one word short, it should be "Original Matching Numbers"

 

[tom]

Matching numbers used to mean original drive train, not close, not correct, not restamped, original. If it's not the original engine it's not matching numbers in my book. If you restamp it to appear matching numbers I would call that fraud. Dosn't matter if you are trying to gain a few judging points, or scam a buyer a lie is a lie is a lie.
Stepping down from the soapbox now. Enjoy what you have.

[pjbizjak]

OK, say you have an all original 68 z/28, numbers matching etc, and 1 day your out driving it and 'wamo' something happens to the engine and the block is damaged, lets say beyond repair, what would you do? What if the block was repairable ie; crack repaired, cylinder sleeved etc., and you had to have it decked, what then? Restamp it? What if one of the cylinder heads got damaged beyond repair and you found a date coded matching cylinder head, and put that on the motor, would it still be 'original'? I have seen on E-Bay and other on-line sources where a seller claims that the car is all original and sells for big $$$ and then reviewing some of the pictures accompaning the ad you see a part you know is not original, that blows 'numbers matching' right out the window. Another point, what if someone 'upgrades' the internals of the motor ie; rods pistons, cam etc.?

[68Zproject]

Some of those items can be put back to "original".  Getting the block decked can not be undone.  Some parts wear out and have to be replaced like valves cams etc, but re stamping is not replacing a part. There are ways to deck a block without taking the numbers off.  If your original engine blows up and can't be repaired, you no longer have an original engine.  Such is life.

[jonboy1216]

i will go 1 step further if  the original block is hurt and cannot be repaired. then you have to do what i seen reggie jackson do a few years back with a 69 zl1. he replaced the engine with another correct but not born with block and sold the car at barret jackson with the original block pulled behind the car with a dolley.remember a car and all its parts is original only once any parts that are replaced incuding the engine should be keeped with the car for the next buyer. (or caretaker for that is what most of us have become).