Car Insurance

[lcmc]

Here is the State Farm Policy. It is agreed value:

6171AK.1 ANTIQUE OR CLASSIC MOTOR VEHICLE

This endorsement is part of your policy.  Except for the changes it makes, all other terms of the policy remain the same and apply to this endorsement.  It is effective at the same time as your policy unless a different effective date is specified by us in writing.

In consideration of the premium charged for your policy, it is agreed that:

1.   COVERAGE UNDER SECTION I - LIABILITY – COVERAGE A AND SECTION II – MEDICAL PAYMENTS – COVERAGE C APPLIES ONLY WHEN YOUR CAR IS USED IN EXHIBITIONS, CLUB ACTIVITIES, PARADES OR OTHER FUNCTIONS OF PUBLIC INTEREST AND OCCASIONALLY FOR PLEASURE AND BUSINESS.


2.   SECTION IV – PHYSICAL DAMAGE COVERAGES

a. Limit of Liability – Comprehensive and Collision Coverages

    This provision is changed to read:

          The limit of our liability for loss to property or any part of it is the
                            lower of:

1.   the actual cash value; or

2.   the cost of repair or replacement.  The cost of repair or replacement does not include any reduction in the value of the property after it has been repaired, as compared to its value before it was damaged. 


                          You and we agree that the actual cash value of your car is the             
                          vehicle value shown on the declarations page unless:

1.   your car has been damaged;

2.   parts have been removed from your car; or


3.   your car’s condition has changed due to abuse or neglect

after the vehicle value shown on the declarations page was agreed to and prior to the loss.






                            If any of these events have occurred, the agreed upon actual cash
                            value is the vehicle value shown on the declarations page reduced
                             by the decrease in the value of your car due to such damage, the
                              removal of parts and damage caused by the abuse or neglect.

                              Any deductible amount that applies is then subtracted.

            The cost of repair or replacement is based upon one of the following:

1.   The cost of repair or replacement agreed upon by you and
       us;

2.   a competitive bid approved by us; or

3.    an estimate written based upon the prevailing competitive price,  The prevailing competitive price means prices charged by a majority of the repair market in the area where the car is to be repaired as determined by a survey made by us.  If you ask, we will identify some facilities that will perform the repairs at the prevailing competitive price.  We will include in the estimate parts sufficient to restore the vehicle to the pre-loss condition.  Such parts may include either parts furnished by the vehicle’s manufacturer or parts from other sources including non-original equipment manufacturers.

Any deductible amount that applies is then subtracted.

                b.  Settlement of Loss – Comprehensive and  Collision Coverages
                     
                      This provision is changed to read:

                               We have the right to settle a loss with you or the owner of the
                                property in one of the following ways:
           
1.   pay the agreed upon actual cash value of the property as
determined above in exchange for the damaged property.
If the owner keeps the damaged property, we will deduct its value after the loss from our payment.  The damaged property cannot be abandoned to us;

[camcojb]

still seems iffy to me. My agreed value doesn't have the options like yours. It's pretty much

1. We will, subject to the applicable limit of liability shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations for this coverage:

a. Repair or replace the damaged or stolen property with like kind and quality if the amount necessary to repair or replace such property is equal to or less than the limit of liability shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations; or

b. Pay the amount shown in the Schedule or in the Declarations.

The above says they'll repair and/or replace the damaged or stolen items up to the policy limit, otherwise you get the value of the policy, period.

If yours is an agreed value policy it'll be the first I've seen, and I've had many people claim they have SF agreed policies in several different states and after further review they were not real agreed value policies. Yours may be, I am no expert.

Bottom line, the info is here in the thread and if you're comfortable that you're covered then you should stick with it. There was a SF agent on another board that insured his 69 Camaro through Hagerty. There have also been numerous brokers on the Camaros.net site that have also said that they've switched away from SF when their own underwriters looked at the policy and told him that he was not guaranteed a certain payout, and that SF held all the aces.

Myself, with the values of these cars I'm just not going to take a chance. If it was a cheap old car that'd be different, but I don't have the money to stand up to SF if they decide my ACV is less than I do. And again, I like SF, use them for all my commercial vehicles (5 total).

Jody

[lcmc]

Jody.....If you read my policy there is no doubt that it is agreed as long as the condition of your car hasn't changed after you put a value on it. The actual cash value of the car is the amount you insure your car for. I had my attorney check out the policy and he sees no problem with the language at all so I am very comfortable with it.

[click]

Danny if your attorney is ok with it, then it should be ok. I agree however with Jody, the use of the term " OR " in that policy wording troubles me. In our Agreed Value coverage with Hagerty, there is no " OR "   there is only a statement that Hagerty agrees to pay the amount the car is insured for, period. The "or" is scary for me. You might ask your attorney if he reads the policy such that there is absolutely 100% NO WAY you will ever get less than the 'agreed value' if its stolen or totaled out.
 Many times, attorneys or ever insurance agents dont get asked the right question and if they are not into collector cars as we are, they dont follow to the same level of thinking that we do.
 Id really hate to see you have any issues later if the right question was not asked. Again, most of us have SF for our other vehicles so its not a bash on SF here. Only that enough folks have found out to late that the right questions were not asked earlier.
  Again, we are truely only trying to make 100% sure you would get the full agreed value for your car.  Anytime I see " OR "  the red light goes on.
 If the agent or attorney cannot put this kind of guarantee in writing, something isnt covered.
 I would ask for a statement like this " in the event of a totaled situation or stolen car, you will receive NO LESS than  $xx,xxx  which is the value we agree on at the annual issuance of this policy"  unless of course the car was altered or damaged by you prior to the theft or accident.

That would clearly cover you and not give the insurance company any back door out for their use of the word  " OR ". 
 It may seem like nitpicking to others that might read this, but is your pocket going to be missing $20,000 on a claim for $40,000 because the insurance company invokes their 'or' clause?
 Have your agent read all these posts we have exchanged and see if he understands our concerns and see what he says. Id be very interested to know why they need the 'or' clause at all.
 Thanks for being patient with this discussion, its all for the better understanding of wording that was created by attorneys, not us common folks. 
 

[lcmc]

When I copied and pasted my policy it did not all show up. Here is the complete policy. This should clear things up better for all of you.

6171AK.1 ANTIQUE OR CLASSIC MOTOR VEHICLE

This endorsement is part of your policy.  Except for the changes it makes, all other terms of the policy remain the same and apply to this endorsement.  It is effective at the same time as your policy unless a different effective date is specified by us in writing.

In consideration of the premium charged for your policy, it is agreed that:

1.   COVERAGE UNDER SECTION I - LIABILITY – COVERAGE A AND SECTION II – MEDICAL PAYMENTS – COVERAGE C APPLIES ONLY WHEN YOUR CAR IS USED IN EXHIBITIONS, CLUB ACTIVITIES, PARADES OR OTHER FUNCTIONS OF PUBLIC INTEREST AND OCCASIONALLY FOR PLEASURE AND BUSINESS.


2.   SECTION IV – PHYSICAL DAMAGE COVERAGES

a. Limit of Liability – Comprehensive and Collision Coverages

    This provision is changed to read:

          The limit of our liability for loss to property or any part of it is the
                            lower of:

1.   the actual cash value; or

2.   the cost of repair or replacement.  The cost of repair or replacement does not include any reduction in the value of the property after it has been repaired, as compared to its value before it was damaged. 


                          You and we agree that the actual cash value of your car is the             
                          vehicle value shown on the declarations page unless:

1.   your car has been damaged;

2.   parts have been removed from your car; or


3.   your car’s condition has changed due to abuse or neglect

after the vehicle value shown on the declarations page was agreed to and prior to the loss.






                            If any of these events have occurred, the agreed upon actual cash
                            value is the vehicle value shown on the declarations page reduced
                             by the decrease in the value of your car due to such damage, the
                              removal of parts and damage caused by the abuse or neglect.

                              Any deductible amount that applies is then subtracted.

            The cost of repair or replacement is based upon one of the following:

1.   The cost of repair or replacement agreed upon by you and
       us;

2.   a competitive bid approved by us; or

3.    an estimate written based upon the prevailing competitive price,  The prevailing competitive price means prices charged by a majority of the repair market in the area where the car is to be repaired as determined by a survey made by us.  If you ask, we will identify some facilities that will perform the repairs at the prevailing competitive price.  We will include in the estimate parts sufficient to restore the vehicle to the pre-loss condition.  Such parts may include either parts furnished by the vehicle’s manufacturer or parts from other sources including non-original equipment manufacturers.

Any deductible amount that applies is then subtracted.

                b.  Settlement of Loss – Comprehensive and  Collision Coverages
                     
                      This provision is changed to read:

                               We have the right to settle a loss with you or the owner of the
                                property in one of the following ways:
           
1.   pay the agreed upon actual cash value of the property as
determined above in exchange for the damaged property.
If the owner keeps the damaged property, we will deduct its value after the loss from our payment.  The damaged property cannot be abandoned to us;








2.   pay  to:
a.   repair the damaged property or part, or

b.   replace the property or part.

If the repair or replacement results in betterment, you must pay for the amount of betterment; or

3.   return the stolen property and pay for any damage due to                     
theft.

                                The Settlement of Loss provision for comprehensive and
                                collision coverage incorporates the Limit of Liability provision of 
                                those coverages.
       
                                 If we can pay the loss under either comprehensive or collision,
                                 we will pay under the coverage where you collect the most.

                                 When there is a loss to your car, clothes and luggage in the same
                                  occurrence, any deductible will be applied first to the loss to
                                   your car.  You pay only one deductible.


c.   The following is added:

Coverage for Spare Parts

We will pay up to $500 during the policy period for direct and accidental loss of or damage to spare parts which are owned by you and in your possession. Spare Parts means equipment designed to be used with vehicles of the same make and model as your car.

[camcojb]

I'm tellin' ya, that sounds like stated value.

Re-read this part:

1.   the actual cash value; or
2.   the cost of repair or replacement.  The cost of repair or replacement does not include any reduction in the value of the property after it has been repaired, as compared to its value before it was damaged. 


                          You and we agree that the actual cash value of your car is the             
                          vehicle value shown on the declarations page unless:

1.   your car has been damaged;

2.   parts have been removed from your car; or


3.   your car’s condition has changed due to abuse or neglect

after the vehicle value shown on the declarations page was agreed to and prior to the loss.




The ACV OR the cost of repair or replacement. THEY get the choice, not you. Yes, your ACV is what is stated in the policy as long as no neglect, parts removal, blah blah blah.............. However, they're telling you right up front "OR THE COST OF REPLACEMENT!" No true agreed value policy says that, only stated.

So, your car gets totaled or stolen. It's agreed ACV is $30K and you haven't removed or neglected the car. Home free, right? Wrong, they get to look for comps (replacement value) and if they find a car that they feel is an equal to yours for $20K, well guess how much they'll give you. You'll be upset, but after all it's there in black and white, either ACV OR replacement value.

If your car is on the low end of what the particular model goes for then take your chances if you want. I see the either/or wording and know it's a stated policy. Not worth the risk to me.

Jody

[Mark]

Is this an area of trouble:

You and we agree that the actual cash value of your car is the             
                          vehicle value shown on the declarations page unless:

1.   your car has been damaged;

If your car is in an accident has it been damaged?

This policy seems to have alot of ifs and ors, and mentions ACV, but them ties ACV to the value in the declarations page, and then tells you if the car is damaged that number is no longer any good.  I like the statement in may policy better. (posted earlier) that basically says you get in an accident we either pay you the total amount in the declarations page, or we pay up to the amount on the declarations page to fix your car.  End of story.  But if your lawyer likes it make sure you bring him with you to the insurance company if you ever have a claim.

[lcmc]

You guys aren't reading it right. That means the condition of the car has changed since you insured it.

[lcmc]

It also states "If we can pay the loss under either comprehensive or collision, we will pay under the coverage where you collect the most.
                                 

[click]

Ive asked my Hagerty rep to read your policy as you displayed it here Danny and I asked him to comment so I can respond back as this information helps all of us. When I hear back I willl post back here BUT until then, I also dont like the  OR  in that wording. OR is 'their' way of thinking, and that concerns me. More later when I hear back.
 Thanks again.

[Gramps69Z]

I live in Florida and have Hagerty with a set agreed upon valve.  Vehicle insurance is not a problem, try finding homeowners in the sunshine state.

Fireman John

[click]

I got a call from a supervisor at Hagerty and they cannont comment on another company's policy wording due to legal issues if they mis-interpret something. They can only comment on their own. He suggested I show the wording to an Independent Agency in town and they are more free for commenting on various policy questions since they deal with many more of them. I will do that next week.

[Pacecarjeff]

I live in Florida and have Hagerty with a set agreed upon valve.  Vehicle insurance is not a problem, try finding homeowners in the sunshine state.

Fireman John

You can say that again - The rates are absurd. 

In my experience - when an insurance company can choose do either: this thing OR that thing.
They always choose the one that is most advantages to them - not you (unless you are a very important customer)

Sounds to me like with this policy, the company can choose to either: pay you - fix your car -  Or - find you a replacement of similar value. (according to them)
Sounds like not a good position for the insured to be in - IMO.

This doesn't sound like "agreed" coverage, sounds like "stated value" - at the insurance companies discretion of the actual value.

I could be wrong I am not a lawyer.

[jmcbeth]

I've been with Hagerty for roughly 9 years...the underwriter is "Emcompass Insurance".   It is an "Agreed Value" policy which matches my "regular" car coverage for liability/prop damage.

I've never had any claims so I cannot give advice about how they treat a loss.

Ditto. I have two cars insured by Hagerty. Never had a claim, so I can't vouch for their claims processing. However, I sure like the "agreed upon vlaue". In addition, I have all of my family's daily drivers (seven of them) with Encompass. Again, no claims (knocking on wood), but my insurance agent highly recommended them.