Messages

1

Decoding/Numbers / Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?

« on: May 03, 2017, 07:00:03 PM »

I know of at lest three semi rare Corvettes that were judged, the judges who thought they were right deducted the aforementioned points for the engine pads, the owners could not live with it and had there engine re stamped, only to end up with the same result several thousand dollars later. The sad part of this story is I am convinced all three of those vehicles had original engines, that just had factory anomalies on their pads and somebody that had to prove they knew everything ended up causing three original examples to be destroyed. Not to mention the thousands of dollars it cost to end up with the same or in one case a worse result. The example that was worse result is an original pad had been lightly decked during a squaring of the block deck bore process in rebuild. He originally lost .8 percent for the missing original pad surface machining. After he had it re stamped, he lost 2% for the pad surface machining and both sets of stamps the machine code and the VIN derivative. Not smart, but in his case the pursuit of perfection caused disaster, that engine will never be viewed as original for the car again and it was.

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Decoding/Numbers / Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?

« on: May 03, 2017, 12:37:06 PM »

I agree good discussion, I did not realize the lengthy history of re-stamping, and it seems the origins are in the Corvette world.
Damn you stuck up, "save the wave" secret handshake Corvette society...

(but thank you Roy and the NCRS resources  )

Darrell and Bullitt65 -Thank you for the kind words, I'm proud of the few accomplishments in my life, getting NCRS to release the Shipping records for Camaro, Chevelle, El Camino and Nova was one of the items I lobbied hard for, finally opened the door. The few books I co authored or edited in the hobby are also high on the list.
 
Actually I believe re stamping started in the Mopar world, I remember in the early 80's going to an individuals place in a little out of the way town in Ohio, he must have had ten Hemi motors in the shop maybe two Chevrolet two Ford, his claim to fame was that he could stamp a motor nobody could tell. The Corvette world judging circle may have alerted the world to what was happening but it was in my view much more prevalent in other circles, that visit just confirmed the fact. That individual has since passed away, lowering the stamper count by one, but unfortunately the number of individuals doing it has increased at a much greater rate.

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Decoding/Numbers / Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?

« on: May 02, 2017, 07:59:15 PM »

Darrell, agree completely, neither of us has to accept and it sounds like neither of us do, at the same time the down stream loss of the term restoration motor or re stamp has again been happening since 1985 as has the down stream loss of reproduction trim tag. I cant control what others think, not going to try. In truth the term matching numbers was created by the unscrupulous to lead the unknowing into something that was not a truth.  the term matching numbers was created after re stamping started to make individuals believe something was real that was not. So I place no faith in the term matching numbers, I've seen them that were done with a chisel. I like original engine, original transmission, etc. born with engine, born with transmission , etc.

with respect to a 435 corvette or a z28 Camaro, it takes a very well versed expert to identify either if the original engine is missing in action, plain simple fact. trim tags have been being changed for decades as has fraudulent paper been being produced. ONCE THE ORIGINAL DRIVE TRAIN IS GONE, IT IS A CRAP SHOOT. No better way to say it.

I applaud all of those that fight to keep injustice from happening if we do not protect the hobby, it will cease to exist. Every time an individual buys a bogus car, there is a great chance one less person will remain in the hobby. Not everyone can afford to learn from the school of hard knocks many of us have been subjected to. Had the seller of the Z28 not been honest in his description after the inspection by Jerry, nobody would have known because without reading that inspection report you cannot tell. The B-J seller was honest, the current eBay owner has not been. But there is proof the eBay owner knew going in because the description is now public record. He just decided he would pull a fast one on some unsuspecting hobbyist.

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Decoding/Numbers / Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?

« on: May 02, 2017, 02:10:03 PM »

Heres what I have come to accept when I see descriptions of stampings in general.

Born-With = Left the factory with the car on the same day bolted in to said vehicle

Numbers Matching, Restoration Engine  = Not original to the car but has been machined and restamped to match what originally could have been there

NOM = No Original Motor

Personally I have a hard time with people calling a restamp anything other than what it is..  Like putting perfume on a pile of poop.  I also have a problem with the people that deck blocks and stamping their own dates and codes on the block.  I would much rather have a car that had an original stamped DZ, MO, MQ etc from a different vin than to take an engine and make it into a restoration engine or numbers matching.  It does not add value to the car IMHO.  It more so makes me question the entire car because if a person is willing to restamp a pad or a part to deceive then what else are they willing to do to make a car "more valuable" for them in the long run..  As more and more people become more acceptable to the term and thinking it is ok then restamping will become common place (more so than it already is)..  If that is what is acceptable in the Corvette world and this is the path Camaros are going then I will pass and move on to something else.  There is nothing worse than a liar and a cheat..  For me it becomes personal as I have a passion for these cars and I do not have a problem with people making a dollar or 2 in a hobby but when people become greedy and restamping is considered an "OK" option then I feel like the hobby is going to SHIT.  And sadly its been going that way for a long time now..


Im not slamming anyone personally but that is how I feel about the terms and events going on with it.

Darrell, I agree with everything you say. It is not acceptable in the Corvette world in my book, let me explain why, the cat was out of the bag before anybody even realized it could happen. Re stamped motors were common place in the restoration hobby 35 years ago. We detected the first reproduction trim tag on a Corvette twenty eight years ago. This is not new and the more you advise the unscrupulous of their errors the better they get.  That's why its paramount that you just stay quiet and not share the things you know that allows you to detect something, engine pad, trim tag or bogus paper, the more you discuss it the better the counterfeiter gets because they are listening to everything we discuss.  In the corvette world the decision was made not to throw the baby out with the spilt milk, in other words If you had a real car you should not kill it because the engine went away due to some unforeseen mechanical issue or a lead foot. The engine was assigned a significant number of points in the total system almost 8%. Obviously in restoration of an original piece the closer you can get to original better. So in your statement as an examp0le you would prefer a real DZ motor from another 69 Z28. So would the Corvette world they would prefer a real 435 from another 67 435 Corvette in their 435, in fact the total points loss for that situation with an incorrect serial number close to the original vehicle would be .5% so a perfect car could score 99.5 with an original motor from another car. We agree on that scenario. I would much prefer that. But the matching numbers crowd has a hissy when the vin does not match the car. I don't get it they do, apparently. The next best choice might be the over the counter complete engine that never had a vin stamped on it, in the corvette world that engine looses the exact same points as the previous example.  the iterations of this fall all the way to the 8%. Correct casting number and bad date is 4% deduct, correct casting number and casting date is 2% deduct. the engine pad is a total of 2%. so you could restore a car with a correct casting number and date block with non original machine marks on the pad and loose only 2%. Or you could do the same thing with an engine that had never been decked which still had its original machine marks  regardless of what was stamped on the pad and loose 1%.  I find it hard to understand how that system, condones restoration motors, it may recognize them and deduct for them but it does not throw the baby out with the milk. Believe me I seem to have spent my life calling a spade a spade when it comes to re stamped motors, reproduction trim tags and counterfeit paper. Unfortunately, its a case of the dog chasing its tail, because it has been going on for decades.

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Decoding/Numbers / Re: Caveat Emptor...forget something?

« on: May 01, 2017, 05:44:02 PM »

Curious about your take on this description, personally I use the term restoration engine a lot in my inspection reports as does Jerry and many others. I think the sellers at B-J and Jerry MacNeish did the right thing here, seller did not know it was a non GM stamped engine/motor when he purchased the restored car. They had MacNeish inspect their collection of cars, he advised them of the restoration engine/motor in the car and that it was not a numbers matching drive train, they sold the car and stated the facts as they understood them. I applaud that in this day and time. It's not the born with original engine, they did not claim it was when they sold it. It is a motor recreated to look as original with correct GM casting dates and GM casting numbers for the vehicle during restoration! so how would you describe it? I think re stamped restoration motor/engine, or restoration motor/engine, is a truthful accurate representation. I would consider a non original engine/motor with wrong casting number and casting date for the car maybe even wrong displacement a non original motor for sure, but a correct casting date and casting number would be as close as you can get without the original engine/motor available, restoration engine/motor seems the best alternative for that type of situation.  I know this is a perfect example of the next guy not passing on the whole truth, or thinking he was smarter than the seller and inspector, that's a different subject in my mind. As a serious, knowledgeable, respected, vehicle inspector am I wrong in my thought process?    Moderator's if you feel then need feel free to move this to a different section.

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Original Cars and Details / Re: Roy's new 68 SS350

« on: March 23, 2017, 06:02:39 PM »

Looks like it (Roy's car) has RS front wheel well moldings.  I can't see the rear good enough to tell if they short as well. Are you pretty sure they're original ?

To the best of my knowledge they are original to the car, I've only owned the car a few weeks, but I have decades of experience and knowledge with respect to original unrestored vehicles and their evaluation.

It just dawned on me (duh) the car doesn't have "belt reveal" moldings (wide moldings at the base of the side glass) which were included with Z21 and Z22. I'm thinking the wheel well moldings were likely added as they were part of Z21/22 as well. 

There were no notations on the Vintage Certification score sheets about the wheel well moldings, in fact they were scored as 100% original, lost .02 points for condition. They were on it in the picture from the 1984 fact book, and I'm told they were not added, but its a 50 year old car and we've only had it a short, short portion of that time.

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Original Cars and Details / Re: Roy's new 68 SS350

« on: February 09, 2017, 08:49:23 PM »

Guys, I have sourced and acquired original wheels now, can somebody confirm what the paint process was.  Were these wheels like corvette wheels painted black originally then color coated on the front only. I assume they were enamel? was there a lot of color over spray through the slots to the backside of the wheel? pictures of original wheel other than black on back side??

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Original Cars and Details / Re: Roy's new 68 SS350

« on: December 02, 2016, 03:56:37 PM »

Steve, Your right that was cool getting his signature in the book he and Dobbins published. The car being on the back cover in a full side shot with multiple other pictures inside the book is very cool, considering that book was published in I think 1984. Seventeen years into the cars life and now twenty two years later the book has been signed while at  the first event it has ever been judged at. All of this lends to our hesitation to change the wheels, the decision has been made we are in the process now of acquiring the wheels and have located the hub caps.

I'm just blown away by several things on this car, I thought it was original, as I've said before I've been around these cars all my life turned sixteen as the 1967 were introduced.

Thank You, MCACN was a great experience - we will be back.

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Original Cars and Details / Re: Roy's new 68 SS350

« on: November 28, 2016, 03:48:04 PM »

Guys, I purposely went dark on this car and decided not to post anymore about it until I was able to get it inspected by somebody more knowledgeable than I. It was taken to MCACN 2016 for Vintage Certification. By all counts it was very well received and held itself up proudly. Received "Vintage Legend Certification" passed all five sections over 91% with a five section average of 94.7. Interior, Engine, and Underbody were all over 95, Exterior and Trunk suffered the most because of the non original Rally Wheels, trim rings and center caps, with the paint scoring 196 points out of 200.  We knew going in they were changed by the original owner and wanted to see how the car would do in its as purchased state, before we considered changing anything. With that said we now wonder if we should change this car to steel wheels and dog dish hubcaps or steel wheels and SS hubcaps, neither will be the original to the car but could be acquired date code correct and refinished as correct.  It was in the MF Dobbins Fact Book in 1984 as it is now.  So the big question anybody have five original unrestored butternut yellow wheels? Do 68 Norwood Camaro's have a build sheet located anywhere on the car?  I do not want to disassemble this car but if there is a specific location I would look.

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Original Cars and Details / Re: Roy's new 68 SS350

« on: July 16, 2016, 02:30:14 PM »

Thank You all for the kind comments, I will be able to get some more pictures after the 25th. I owe this find to Jerry MacNeish - my son and I walked by it several times without realizing what we had just passed.

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Original Cars and Details / Re: Roy's new 68 SS350

« on: July 15, 2016, 01:28:08 PM »

Is this car the one that was discussed briefly here recently?  one that was previously owned by Dick Whittington??  or is my old memory failing me again.. 

I honestly can't answer that, this car is 8N326357, Dick Whittington (a very good long time close friend of mine) is not mentioned in any of the paperwork, I have not called or asked him, when I contacted Kurt he indicated the first he heard of the car was when Jerry MacNeish mentioned it to him very recently.

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Original Cars and Details / Re: Roy's new 68 SS350

« on: July 15, 2016, 01:21:09 PM »

Looks like it (Roy's car) has RS front wheel well moldings.  I can't see the rear good enough to tell if they short as well. Are you pretty sure they're original ?

To the best of my knowledge they are original to the car, I've only owned the car a few weeks, but I have decades of experience and knowledge with respect to original unrestored vehicles and their evaluation.

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Original Cars and Details / Re: Roy's new 68 SS350

« on: July 14, 2016, 07:24:38 PM »

Just noticed Kurt did not post the interior picture, so here it is.

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Original Cars and Details / Re: Roy's new 68 SS350

« on: July 14, 2016, 03:20:47 PM »

Yes one hose ribbed, one GM logo. Thank you all for the kind words. It's important I think that you realize I have not washed or cleaned anything at this point, eventually I will - cautiously.

I've attached another photo I have with me, again I'm away from the car so can't send you any detail photos I do not have with me until after 7/26.

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Original Cars and Details / Re: Roy's new 68 SS350

« on: July 14, 2016, 01:37:56 PM »

The date code on the cowl tag is 10B and yes it appears to be painted white!

Long story short this is Jerry MacNeish's fault, I've been bitten again and as a result I now own another car, like I need another one. I’ll have some better pictures eventually, right now I'm just trying to wrap my hands around it. Jerry MacNeish pointed the car out to me and advised me that it is one of if not the best unrestored Camaro's he has ever inspected.

I know the brake hoses and battery have been changed. It's butternut yellow, black vinyl hardtop, 4speed. Still has the original door protectors used at the factory for shipment, protect-o-plate, original title and owner history to day one.

I'm just a sucker for these original unrestored cars. Original paint, exhaust, mufflers, clamps, red line tires and it drives spectacular, like a new car. I know you want pictures, it may be a few days before I get better ones to you because frankly I'm travelling and not going to be near its climate controlled storage for ten days.

I know very little about Camaro's, do believe the rally wheels are added based on notes in the file on the car.