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Messages - Dave69x33

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1
General Discussion / Re: Speedometer cable grommet
« on: March 19, 2025, 09:49:59 PM »
I cannot find my tool design sketch used to make the tool to share, but here are a few pics of my tool to give you an idea how it is designed and works.

2
General Discussion / Re: Speedometer cable grommet
« on: March 19, 2025, 04:01:02 PM »
When I restored my '69 Z28 and replaced the speedometer cable, I had a conical tool made out of nylon rod material very similar in shape to the one pictured, and used bearing grease help allow the grommet to push over the tool and metal fitting on the cable.  The use of an long open socket that is necked down may also work as DONCZ28 suggested. When I get home this evening after work, will look for picture to post of my tool. If I recall correctly, I have a sketch of my tool design I will also post.

3
Originality / Re: Misc markings and labels
« on: February 26, 2025, 04:51:30 PM »
I need to correct my prior input on phosphate and priming 1st Gen Camaro bodies. The bodies were primed after the 7-stage phosphate coating process.

Here is an except from the Norwood assembly sequence article covering the Fisher Body Paint Shop Operations:

"The Paint Shop is broken down into phosphate, prime, sealing, and color departments; the body was suspended from an overhead conveyor with hooks at the firewall and at the ends of the rear frame rails through the phosphate system, and was transferred to a steel carrying truck before the prime system that carried it through the rest of the Paint Shop and through the Trim Shop.

Phosphate System: The raw body shell passed through a seven-stage phosphate system, where it went through a series of enclosed high-pressure hot spray stages where it was washed to remove all the oils and debris from stamping, welding, brazing, soldering, and grinding operations, then the body was coated with a hot iron phosphate solution which "etched" the metal and provided "teeth" for paint adhesion. The final stage was a de-ionized hot water rinse and blow-off, followed by a drying oven on the way to the prime booth.

Prime System: In the first prime booth, the entire body, inside and out, was manually sprayed with primer, and confined areas subject to corrosion were given a second coat of heavier primer material; this prime coat was then baked at 390F for 30 minutes. In the second prime booth, the instrument panel and rear of the shelf area (and the upper door and quarter areas of 1967-68 models) were painted interior color, and another coat of air-dry flash primer was sprayed from the belt line down. The interior color areas were masked, and the entire outer body was sprayed with gray primer-surfacer and the body was baked again at 285F for 45 minutes. The cowl vent panel was hung in the side window opening on wire hooks all the way through the paint process."

My Camaro and vetteskip Camaro were built during the same time period with gray primer floorboards.  I supposed it was possible, but perhaps not likely, the Fisher Body Plant at Norwood switch between gray and low sheen black primer on the floorboards, but then as it has been said in our hobby, nothing is absolute about how our GM cars were originally built and anomalies or deviations to the process have been found.
 

4
Originality / Re: Misc markings and labels
« on: February 25, 2025, 05:22:11 PM »
vetteskip,

Thank you for all your very interesting pics of original details on your '69Z!  The pics of underside of your floorboards clearly show that some '69 Norwood built cars had a gray primer looking color most likely from the hot phosphate treatment the bodies received prior to paint.  My 05A '69 Z28 had floorboards that matched the color of yours.  I have other photo documentation from other survivor '69 Camaros also showing original "gray primer" appearing floorboards. 

Based on this, I believe the '69 Legends Judging Manual is in error stating they "prefer" to see floorboards painted a low sheen black. If you read and study the Norwood assembly process, and view pictures of the bodies on the conveyor trucks that came from the Chevrolet side the assembly plant, I do not see anywhere in the process where a painter could reach and spray the bottom surface of the floorboards a neat uniform a low sheen black.  I could see where some painters may have sprayed more overspray on floorboard surfaces while they painted the blackout below the rocker panel spear molding on some color cars.   

Do you see any evidence of the code "57" on the inside surface of your spare tire, and/or on the inside surface of the front lower valance?


5
Garage Talk / Re: Jay Leno driving 1969 RS Z28 Camaro
« on: February 10, 2025, 05:11:52 PM »
I watched this Leno video because of him driving a '69 Z28 and wanted to see what it looked like. It is a nice story but the owner did not appear to know much technically about the car.  When I heard the driving video, it was immediately clear there was something wrong with the exhaust!  Seeing the blown muffler along the seam explains the noise...and very odd.  And yes, I have never see a stenciled part number on an original exhaust system muffler or resonator.

6
BTW...

Is there any data indicating Norwood build Camaros with 05B trim plates? 

Based on my database research so far, I have not seen any 05B trim plates.   On the topic concerning fuel tank date codes, there are no recorded 1969 05B data points so far.

7
Great pics of original exhaust system components William and X66 714! 

I am very grateful we at gaining some more knowledge with visual references to what exhaust system combinations came on our 1969 Camaros and particularly in May 1969 during the transition from the interim exhaust w/o resonators, the resonator system with non-chrome tail pipes, and the resonator system with chrome tail pipes.  I believe are starting to see some trends with BB and SS 396 Camaros vs. the SB and Z28 Camaros but more data points and examples are needed.

X66 714, it's interesting your late August 1969 396 came w/o resonators whereas Doug Perry's early 02D Norwood build 396 came with resonators and non-chrome tail pipes, which stands to reason given the chrome tail pipes entered production on 5/19/1969.

Folks, if you happen to come across unrestored survivor 1969 Camaros SS BB or SB car, or Z28s that retain their original exhaust system components, please get and post pictures.  Include info from the body trim plate build date and plant, and the Camaro VIN.  This is a tough ask as the exhaust system were probably among the first components that rusted and/or changed to headers exhaust systems.

Thanks,
Dave


8
Since we are on the topic of the application and use of resonators in 1969 Camaros, I wanted to share a few photos of Doug Perry's amazing, well preserved, 02D Norwood build X66 SS 396 Camaro survivor with its original resonator exhaust system!  These pics were taken during the 2023 Camaro Nationals Legends Judging.

9
Thank you William and Kurt!

I always appreciate and value your input!  I'll let Eric Gardner know that I need the muffler/resonator system with aluminized tail pipes.  After I spoke with Eric about this last week to get his thoughts, he thought either the resonator or non-resonator system would be appropriate for my 05A build Camaro Z28 but to confirm with Jerry M and/or the folks on CRG.

I should have clarified when I stated "deep tone" muffler which is a muffler option on Gardner systems, if one selects the 1969 Camaro interim exhaust system with crossflow muffler without resonators.  I am not sure if the GM parts books referred to the non-resonator muffler as "deep tone?"

Glad my '69Z was assembled in May 1969...I have the original "BV" April date coded rear axle and April date coded 4:10 gears in my car!  I did not realize the 4:10 gear ratio was dropped as an option in June 1969.  I like the 4:10 when driving around the city but it does tend to “help me” limit my speed on the highway...LOL!

10
Originality / 1969 Z28 Exhaust & Beginning of Resonators - Revisit Topic
« on: January 05, 2025, 09:53:43 PM »
I would like to revisit this topic that Bryan302 originally posted in his question back in 2015, and get updated info from from the CRG community. 

I need to replace the standard cross-flow muffler system that has been on my car since I restored in back between 1995 - 2000.  I plan to purchase a Gardner System but need to confirm if I should use the standard muffler system w/o resonators, or the standard muffler system with resonators. Gardner offers two different muffler depending if you to with or without resonators. From what I understand the non-resonator system is called the Deep Tone Exhaust kit.  The question is should I order aluminized or chrome tail pipes? My gut tells me I should go with resonators and aluminized tail pipes based on the following info.

Back in 2015 William originally responded with this recommendation: '69 Camaros with VINs starting with N627600/L529000 included the resonator system; VINs starting with N646229/L530160 received chrome tail pipes. He went on to state chromed tailpipes became standard on May 19, 1969, and the N10 duel exhaust system option increased $15.80 on the SS and Z/28.

The original discuss thread talks about very early build ZL1's shown in magazine articles with resonators.  I have resent photos I took during the 2023 Camaro Nationals of Doug Perry's amazing low millage black X66 SS396 Norwood 02D build N604699 survivor showing its original resonator system.

The original post from 2015 offered a lot of useful info including a copy of the letter from GM dated August 22, 1969 issue to Camaro Owners with Z28, L-34 (SS w/350 HP), and L-78 (375 HP) that included the early design chambered exhaust systems on Camaros produced prior to November 1968, and Z28's produced between 12/4/1968 and 5/2/1969 with the interim cross-flow standard muffler exhaust system w/o resonators, warning of potential issuance of noise warnings or citations in the state of California.  It amusing that the letter states: "It has been determined that these exhaust systems may exceed the State of California noise level during instances of maximum acceleration in lower gear ratios."  I thought who would ever do that...well me just about every time I drive my '69 302 Z28...LOL!

2nd Question:This there any new or updated VIN info or photo documentation when the 3rd exhaust system design with resonators were used on Norwood on 1969 Z28s?  The GM letter indicates Z28's built after 5/2/1969 will have the resonator system but this was a target date and subject to production stock availability. I have photo documentation of a Norwood 09D build Z28 survivor with resonators.  Jerry MacNeish's '69 Camaro fact book states the resonator system was used between April 15 to end of production for the 1969 Camaro model year in November 1969.  So there is some conflicts on the exact dates when resonators were launched on Z28s, and there a few documented '69 Z28 examples from this period without resonators...perhaps due to the availability of production stock of resonators during that period.

3rd Question: Are there any 05A Norwood build Z28 that have been thru legends judging and how did your Camaro exhaust system score and which system is on your car? 

My '69 Z28 is an 05A build (trim plate) Norwood car VIN is N638712. Per my NCRS Shipping Data Report, the production date is 5/5/1969 which falls in the 2nd week of May between 5/4 - 5/10/1969. The 3rd week runs between 5/11 - 5/17/1969 and 4th week between 5/18 - 5/24/1969, thus the chrome tail pipes became standard during the 4th week on Monday 19, 1969  My VIN falls between the dates William noted above which is why I assume I should use resonators and aluminumized tail pipes to be technically correct for judging purposes.

I contacted Jerry M to ask about this and he said either the non-resonator interim system or the resonator system would be acceptable, but I would like to get more clarification for those of us with 05A build '69 Z28.

Thanks,
Dave 


11
Originality / Re: 1969 door jamb screw questions
« on: December 19, 2024, 08:49:49 PM »
Pulled and measured my 9419380 screw in top fan shroud position.  It matches the screw specs provided by AMK Products and HBC.

Perhaps this info on the fan shroud screw should be moved to a different discussion subject under the "Originality" thread associated with "Fan Shroud and Hardware"?

There is a related discussion thread under "Originality" but it old.

12
Originality / Re: 1969 door jamb screw questions
« on: December 19, 2024, 05:55:40 PM »
Just did a quick internet search for "GM screw 9419380." Heartbeat City (HBC) Camaro among a few other restoration suppliers who also list the same screw.  HBC's is the 1st pic below and list their screw as an original NOS screw, but it appears identical to AMKs screw. AMK's current listing is item #B-12175.

HBC may have purchased the screw from AMK Products.  Years ago AMK began buying up unused bulk hardware items from Ford, GM, and Chrysler assembly plants as the plants closed.  Most of AMK's hardware may be NOS stock.

All told, ideally it would be best to compare side-by-side AMK's 9419380 screw with a known GM original from a survivor Camaro.

I thought I solved my 9419380 screw mystery...but here I go again...lol!

13
Originality / Re: 1969 door jamb screw questions
« on: December 19, 2024, 05:29:28 PM »
Mike,

When I get home from work I can pull my fan shroud screw to measure the diameter of the washer and thread length. I'll also see if I used the same screws to secure the steering column covers together.

Here is a view of AMK's screw 9421985. AMK's screw appears to match the GM screw 9419380 but I am not sure about this.  AMK's screw is 3/4 inch long with an encapsulated washer diameter of 3/4 inch.

If you have an original GM 9419380 screw, please post a picture!

Thanks,

Dave 

14
Originality / Re: 1969 door jamb screw questions
« on: December 19, 2024, 02:13:52 AM »
Sorry, that last pic got distorted. Hope this shot looks better...

15
Originality / Re: 1969 door jamb screw questions
« on: December 19, 2024, 02:09:26 AM »
Fan shroud screw 9419380 - continued:

Pic 3 is from an 04C Norwood build X77 Z28 survivor, the yellow Z28 pics I posted earlier.  Its not a good picture but you can see the general shape of the screw.

Pic 4 is from an 05C Norwood build X11 SS 350 survivor.

Pic 5 is from an 02D Norwood build X66 396 SS survivor.  I met this owner and photographed his car at the 2023 Camaro Nat Legends judging.

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