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Messages - Mark

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841
Decoding/Numbers / Re: 69 LOS L48 ID
« on: September 17, 2008, 12:43:58 AM »
I've got some Dec cars with the VINs on the pad.  I've got a few pads from earlier cars (August and September builds) with the VINs on the oil filter casting area.  I don't have an 1109HB block stamping to compare to this one.

842
Originality / Re: O-1 convertible paint
« on: September 16, 2008, 04:44:06 PM »
Here they are (the replica's) being given away in Dearborn, MI.


843
Originality / Re: O-1 convertible paint
« on: September 16, 2008, 04:30:58 PM »
Not exactly true according to mustang sources.  there was only 35 or so Pacecars at the track and they were obtained from production cars already at dealerships around the country.  Only the 2 actual pace cars and the winners cars were specially prepared for use at the track. 

In 1964, Ford had the Galaxie poised to pace the Indianapolis 500. That changed when Mustang madness swept the nation. But Ford had a serious problem: not enough Mustangs to meet consumer demand, much less the added demand of a racing event where more than three dozen convertibles were needed.  Indy 500 officials from the period have SAID that those responsible for the pace car program at Ford were scrambling to find suitably equipped Mustang convertibles prior to the race. To pacify Indy officials, Ford shipped 35 '64 Galaxie 500 convertibles in March, which were replaced by Mustang convertibles early in May.

The 35 Wimbledon White Mustang convertibles varied in the way they were optioned because many of them were sourced from Ford dealers within a sizable radius around Indianapolis. Each of these convertibles was D-code 289-4V-equipped. Interiors were red, white, or blue vinyl. Some had Cruise-O-Matics while others had four-speeds. Each had the Indy 500 graphics made for Ford by 3M.

Ford shipped these convertibles to Louisville, Kentucky, shortly after the race and sold them to dealers with the highest bids. Alderman Ford in Indianapolis successfully bid on a dozen or so of the pace car replicas. Needless to say, these cars sold quickly. What makes them hard to track is their status as run-of-the-mill production units. No special DSO codes or paint color.

While they don't yet know enough about the 35 festival convertibles, they do know something about the three actual Holman-Moody-prepared pace car convertibles built to pace the race. One paced the race. The other two were backup cars. The cars were all painted Wimbledon White. On race day only 2 of these cars actually made the parade lap, as the third ran into mechanical difficulties. Their vehicle identification numbers were 5F08F100240, 5F08F100241, and 5F08F100242, indicating all were 260-2V convertibles. All had significant chassis preparation. Each was fitted with a Holman-Moody-prepared 289ci V-8 engine.  Each of these Mustangs was fitted with grab bars and two-way radios. All three were produced as 260-2V convertibles and shipped to Holman-Moody. One of these cars survives today in Florida, owned by Bruce Weiss. The other two haven't been accounted for.

So, how do the approximately 190 Pace Car White Mustang hardtops fit into the pace car picture? For one thing, the pace car hardtop replicas really have little in common with the 38 Wimbledon White drop-tops at Indy. These pace car hardtops were Pace Car White (Color Code "C", 1964 only), had Trim Code 42 (white with blue appointments) interiors, and were equipped with the "F" code 260-2V V-8 with Cruise-O-Matic transmission.  Note that none of these were actually at the Indianapolis 500, they were just replicas built for general use, just like the vast majority of the Z11's.

The hardtops were produced for the Checkered and Green Flag contests, which were dealer incentives designed to both promote the new Mustang and indicate the Mustang's status as the official Indy 500 pace car for 1964. Each sales district arranged its dealers into groups based on sales volume in the preceding 12 months. A sales objective for April 1964 was established for each dealer in each group. Dealers who exceeded their sales objective by the greatest percentage in its group qualified to compete against all other group winners in the district.

Ford had already decided the total number of winners because the pace car replicas were assembled consecutively in mid-April 1964. The total number of winners, by district, was also predetermined since each of the pace car hardtops had a standard two-digit DSO code on the warranty plate. There were five standard-order DSO code pace car Mustangs per sales district for a total of 180 units. Each sales district determined the allocation of winners based on the best percentage of sales. The very best were declared Checker Flag winners. Second Place winners were Green Flag contest winners. Ford was aiming for an even split between the two contests. But it didn't turn out that way.

Since each sales district had considerable flexibility in conducting their contests and determining winners, the number of winners of each contest was inconsistent among the districts. There were many ties between dealers, particularly small-volume dealers. This created logistics issues across the land. Ford had already produced 180 hardtops for the two contests, but they needed more as a result of the ties. Approximately 10 more Pace Car White hardtops had to be produced in early May to meet the need. They say "approximately 10" because it has never been determined with documentation how many were produced. This is based on available documentation that addresses winning dealers.

Because these additional pace car hardtops were ordered internally by Ford, with no idea who the winning dealers would be at the time, they were ordered as DSO 84 (Home Office Reserve) units.

Checkered Flag winners (105 of them) were invited to Dearborn, Michigan, to pick up their free Mustang pace car hardtops in a nice ceremony with then-Ford Division General Manager Lee Iacocca. Dealers had the option of driving their winnings home or having them shipped. Green Flag winners had to stay home and pay for their prize with a $500 discount.

844
Originality / Re: O-1 convertible paint
« on: September 11, 2008, 03:24:39 AM »
Nope, finding a Norwood BBC is like finding a 4 leaf clover to begin with, finding one for a special paint car would be like finding a 5 leaf clover.  Looked closer at the BBC for the PC and its an 04A car, not a 03C one, FSO is 061A.

Ive got tag info on 177 O- code 67 and 68 Camaros, 73 of those are pace cars, 6 of the 67 year cars are LA cars (no Pacecars or even convertibles in this group), 9 more non pacecars are Norwood built cars.  Californians seem to like orange colored cars in 67, 4 of these 6 were some shade of orange originally, theres another 31 LA built 68's with the 0- codes the rest, 55 are Norwood 68's.  Theres a few of those powder blue (Colorado, or Carolina blue) colored cars, and the rest are all over the spectrum, some are normal colors without Z28 stripes, or odd colored stripes, but the vast majority are unknown what the original color was or if they were stripe delete as they had been refinished.

845
Restoration / Re: 69 Z/28 white stripes paint code
« on: September 11, 2008, 02:48:00 AM »
Dover white paint code 50.  PPG paint code 2058.

846
Originality / Re: O-1 convertible paint
« on: September 10, 2008, 10:28:21 AM »
I have the same problem here as I had over at camaropacecarsdotcom.  The BBC isn't mine and I don't have the owners permsiion to post it (don't even know who the owner is) so I can't post it up unless he (she) lets me.  VIN is 205856 if anyone knows who owns it today.

The bottom of the BBC (below the option boxes) says:

ST TOP 1001AA
PT PER F
SO  PACE CAR       REPLICA

means ST standard top, 1001 special paint AA no extra charge
PT PER FSO = Paint per Fleet Sales Order
and that its a pace car.

Just a note about the above, the FSO paperwork would have the info about the decals, not the BBC.

847
Originality / Re: O-1 convertible paint
« on: September 10, 2008, 12:44:47 AM »
I don't think anyone has seen FSO paperwork outside of the factory.  Closest I've seen in the ECL sheet for the 2 styling study ZL1's (the black and gold ones) which just says the vehicles will painted in accordance with the GM styling drawing 115707-L (which I don't have).  Obviously this drawing was present in the body shops to reference when the cars came thru. (remember the front end was no where near the car itself when it was painted, and the only tie to the front end and the rest of the car was the broadcast sheet and the fact that the body was locked into the same sequence as the front end sheetmetal on the assembly line.

I would think that a fleet order (like the first batch of 67 PCs) would have a document that was present in the two body shops at Norwood that would identify anything special that had to be done the the cars, like the blue nose and pin stripes otherwise the white car would have received black stripes.  The O on the tag, and on the braodcast sheet (theres really just a dot in the upper and or lower color box on a BBC on a special paint instruction car) was just there as an attention getter that said to check the paperwork for that car.  The O3 PC that I have the body broadcast sheet for specifically says to paint the car per the FSO on the bottom of it.  It probably also identified the part number for the door decals with instructions for them to be placed in the trunk of the car.

848
Originality / Re: O-1 convertible paint
« on: September 09, 2008, 03:05:58 PM »
O code means special paint instructions, period, it has nothing to do with the color or type of paint,  Got a bunch of 0 coded 67 Camaro tags that were all kinds of colors.

Specifically in regards to the 67 PCs the cars were painted per the FSO documentation that accompanied the cars in the plant. (documented by the instructions on the bottom of a body broadcast sheet of an 03C O-1 Pacecar.)  It told the body shop exactly what color to use on the car, nose stripe and pin stripes, along wth the instructions to cut and polish the paint.  find a copy of the FSO paperwork and all your questions will be answered for you.

849
Originality / Re: O-1 convertible paint
« on: September 08, 2008, 02:24:10 AM »
Not only does it continue but it was recently printed as gospel in Muscle Car Review (I think) in an article about the 67 Pacecars.  The source for the article was the guys over at camaropacecarsdotcom.  I got banned from that site recently, by simply asking how it was possible to paint the cars in enamel, while still building another 850 laquer painted cars on the same day, which they could not answer.

850
Research Topics & Reports / Re: 69 decklid emblem holes
« on: September 05, 2008, 04:54:40 PM »
The fact that the Firebirds were being built at Norwood by that time, may have caused a change to how the lids were delivered.  Chevy probably had the lids delivered to the plant with no holes in them at all after June or so so that they could drill the appropriate holes for a FB or Camaro as needed.  Therefore a spoiler car would only have the relocated holes in the lid after this change took place (if it did - I'm just thinking out loud)    Scheduling stuff after April must have gotten real exciting with F/B and Camaro parts being installed and both Chevy and Pontiac paints in the body shop.

851
General Discussion / Re: Repairs to bodys in the assembly plant.
« on: September 01, 2008, 01:37:17 AM »
If a car was taken off line for repair it was done in hours, not days or weeks.  A late April built car (assuming the actual build of the car wasn't delayed after the tag was made) can not have a June axle in it from the factory.  The damage you see may have been caused by the shipper or dealer and was repaired there instead.

852
General Discussion / Re: "Survivor" definition
« on: August 31, 2008, 12:49:52 PM »
By the TV show?  Don't think you can copyright a word.

853
Originality / Re: O-1 convertible paint
« on: August 24, 2008, 03:41:43 PM »
If you use enamel, how long do you need to wait before buffing and polishing?

Plus if enamel was used, you can paint enamel over the lacquer based primer system (don't knw how soon you can do it though) but when it came time to blackout the firewall and other areas that might have enamel overspray on them, you can't use the lacquer based blackout paint.  Your almost forceing the plant to come up with not only the enamel body color paint, but every other paint that was used on the line had to be enamel.  Theres no way that would happen in the plant.  It would almost demand that the cars be painted off line somewhere, but as I understand it, theres no place in the plant where you could put 50 some odd cars so they could be stripped down and completely repainted (or painted) in enamel. 

The assembly plants were paid based on the number of cars produced, so they would not be to keen on spending alot of extra time on these cars.  If it cost them 200 "regular" cars production for a day so they could spend time on these cars, thats probably 3/4 of a million dollars of lost production.  I doubt corporate GM is going to give the assembly plant a check for that amount (or anysignificant amount) for spending time painting cars, when the normal paint (lacquer) used would have been more than adequate.

854
Originality / Re: Firestone or Goodyear F70-14 tires
« on: August 24, 2008, 03:22:18 PM »
The tire pictured just above yours is what the Firestone wide ovals looked like in 69.  The style you have is from a later production year.  Its the style of the lettering everyone cars about, no one really cares about the tire construction, and if someone made a correctly lettered radial version of the tires they would probably make a killing on them.  I've got the dreaded Polyglas tires on my car and while they look period correct they suck to drive on. They catch every bump, crack and crease on a road.  It's hard to beleive that these cars were everyday drivers when new.  If people were driving them today half the population would be stuck in ditches.

855
Maintenance / Re: Console gauges problems
« on: August 21, 2008, 02:33:58 AM »
Your green and pink wires on temperature gauge are on the wrong terminals.  The green one should be on the terminal closest to the side of the console.  Looks like the whoe thing (terminals, spacer, connector) is on backwards  The outer terminal (green) should point to the lower outer corner of the mounting plate, and the upper middle.  The inner terminal (pink) should line up with the outer upper corned of the mounting plate, and the bottom center.


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