CRG Discussion Forum
Camaro Research Group Discussion => Decoding/Numbers => Topic started by: william on October 29, 2021, 02:28:53 PM
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https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-chevrolet-camaro-z-28-60/
124379N596082
From the ad:
"This 1969 Chevrolet Camaro Z/28 is finished in Garnet Red with black stripes over black vinyl upholstery and is powered by a numbers-matching 302ci V8..."
The V0120DZ stamping does not compare with other January 1969 Z/28 engine stamps. Block appears to have been decked.
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Yup - one of those subtle wording differences to watch out for:
“….a numbers matching …” vs “….the numbers matching original…”
Richard
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(quote) Yup - one of those subtle wording differences to watch out for:
“….a numbers matching …” vs “….the numbers matching original…” (quote)..
or better yet 'Born With'..
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With the increasing successful litigation of sellers/dealers for misrepresentation of vehicles and parts they try to reduce their liability with stuff like "believed to be" or "pervious owner says". I hate dealers and flippers.
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Sold for $95.5k!
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Fueled by people like this, and NCRS acceptance of restamps. https://numbersmatch.net
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Maybe they should have listed it as 1/2 X77 and 1/2 X33 and just called it a X55. Whoever gave $95.5k prob wouldnt know the difference....
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That link by Red955i was very disturbing.
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That link by Red955i was very disturbing.
Which is why the block need to be inspected for the correct machining pattern that was left by broaching at the engine plant. I'm wondering if that is somehow being duplicated these days?
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There are people who SAY they can reproduce the factory broach marks, BUT IMO I think I can tell the difference between a 50 yr old broached surface and one broached and stamped last year...?
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Everyone in the hobby just needs to be educated that “numbers-matching” does not mean born-with. Sadly plenty of folks new to the hobby have no idea. But really, the concept of “numbers-matching” just needs to go away in general. It’s born-with or it’s not. I can’t get over that this car sold for $95k!
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,,,,,,,,,,,,, born-with or it’s not. I can’t get over that this car sold for $95k!
DITTO!
or Did it really will we see it again soon<>?
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,,,,,,,,,,,,, born-with or it’s not. I can’t get over that this car sold for $95k!
DITTO!
or Did it really will we see it again soon<>?
Probably the same guy that paid $171 for this Z.
https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1969-chevrolet-camaro-z-28-32/
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Directly from the seller during the auction when asked:
Nov 3 at 12:52 PM
WX8 This author's likes: 1
Is this a Date Code Correct engine or a numbers matching engine the car was born with?
Nov 3 at 5:25 PM
highoctane1 (The Seller) This author's likes: 28
@WX8 matching numbers engine it was born with
Doc
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Interesting that the phone number on the Numbers Match site appears to be the same as this business.
https://fantomworks.com/about/contact-us/
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There's probably a valid reason the phone numbers are the same, and it really doesn't surprise me...
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I don't know if NCRS (for Corvettes) has changed it ways, but a decade ago this was from their Judging manual.
"For instance, the following examples represent restorations and are not considered counterfeiting:
• Repainting an original black Corvette with black lacquer paint
• Installing accurately reproduced black vinyl seat covers in a car that left the factory with a standard black interior
• Stamping a 435-HP block to conform to the date/serial number of the original 435-HP Corvette in which it is to be
installed"
"For instance, the following would be examples of counterfeiting:
• Repainting an original blue car red and changing the trim tag to make red appear to be the original color
• Installing a red interior in a car that left the factory with a blue interior and changing the trim tag to make red
appear to be the original color interior
• Replacing the engine of an original small block Corvette with a big block and stamping numbers on it to make it
appear to be an original big block engine
• Replacing the carburetor on an engine with a fuel-injection unit and stamping the numbers and suffix code on the
block to make it appear to be an original fuel-injection car"
So if your "Born With" Engine was long gone, you got another date coded correct engine, and re-stamped it, you are fine. However if you replaced your 427/400 with a 427/435 and stamped as such, that was counterfeit. If it weren't for rules like this, there would be far less of a market for stamps etc.
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"Interesting" NCRS uses a harsher legal TERM: counterfeiting (i.e. CLONE)
What does the ART world Call a Tribute "Mona-Lisa" that is up for auction.
Seller chimes in with: Representations and Warranties made by seller: This vehicle is being sold "as is". No representations or warranties are made by seller, nor are any representations or warranties relied upon by bidders in making bids.
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The BaT is an interesting sight of sellers and buyers. Many high-end cars on the site sold by small, premium dealers at above market prices is my take. They do not like criticism or questioning of the cars being auctioned and call people out if you degrade the listing in anyway (ie - suggest the engine may not be original). Lots of sycophants there praising cars they know nothing about and others who know little but preach they know a lot, stating things that are not accurate, but everyone goes along with it. To gain status with the buyers and critics, you need to bid on cars (not win, just bid to help drive up the prices).
Anyway, I frequent the site often due to interesting cars listed, but don't dare say anything....
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Great Word!
a person who acts obsequiously toward someone important in order to gain advantage.
synonyms:
toady · creep · crawler · fawner · flatterer · flunkey · truckler · groveler · doormat · lickspittle · kowtower · obsequious person · minion · hanger-on · leech · puppet · spaniel · Uriah Heep
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Interesting that the phone number on the Numbers Match site appears to be the same as this business.
https://fantomworks.com/about/contact-us/
Holy Chamoley!!!! wow.......